Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

[joeyfivecents]

I think it goes back to whatever these professionals learned first and what was dominating the studio market back in the early days (pretty much Pro Tools). If the situation was reversed and everyone knew Live first, this fanboys/professional/plinker conversation wouldn't even exist. I've made money in Pro Tools and Logic (when I lived in Nashville), released 2 decent records, and gotten a few placements on tv and radio. That being said, if I had to choose between all DAWs whether it was a money gig or not- right now it would be a toss up between Reason, Live, and FL. People use the big boy DAWs because that's what they know and that's what everyone else in the industry is telling them to use. Oh and, long live plinkers! And fanboys for that matter- at least their glasses are half full.

[knotkranky]

hey kranky, some questions:

1) who exactly do you mean by "fanboys."

2) give me a specific example of how one would "shut all the smart talk down"




I don't entirely agree with suburbanThug, but his argument is rational and doesn't include the kind of fanboy finger pointing and ridiculous speculations about the inner workings of the company that you famously present, or the obvious bias of a troll like simp.


I don't understand you at all. You have bought every single update even though you complain that the program is near unusable for you every time. You complain that the browser is a way for ableton to sell you canned content, and then YOU BUY canned content. Why do you keep spending your money on a product you find to be so "unprofessional?" Are you a masochist? Is it cheaper than paying a dom to crush your balls with stiletto heels? I didn't even touch your claim of spending 5 thousand dollars on ableton updates or your claim that they have a track record of being "wholly unfair or disorganized in their practices."

I've owned the program since v2 and have never simply bought an upgrade because it was out, i have always tested them out first and weighed my options. Believe me, if i ever experienced the scope of problems with the software that someone like you claims to have, i wouldn't spend a dime on an upgrade.


Again, I do think that there are a lot of users offering constructive criticism here, I still don't believe that you are one of those. I haven't read a single thing from you that is a well articulated and specific argument. I've only read unfounded speculation and name calling. How do you figure that for the "smart talk" that is somehow going to do anything for live's future?

Ok, i'll try. But you want absolutes. Thats where you live. I like the more interesting middle gray bit, that's where i live. This is a fundamental diff between you and me. Nothing wrong, just two different dudes. I also don't think there's anything wrong with sweeping generalities. I do a lot of speculating. But it's a multi-million dollar company and they all run very similarly. I also believe that a slightly antagonistic relation with the company is much healthier. I don't need proof and i don't need to explain myself to make it true.

1. Fanboy: have you heard the old saying; "Stepping over a dollar to pick up a nickel"? Fanboy's do this. They want fringe features and ignore necessary foundational improvements. Sure, lets put a spoiler on the Pinto!

2. ""give me a specific example of how one would "shut all the smart talk down"" Naw, it's just a din that never ceases and drives the real user thinkers into; "Why bother, no one's listening" Just look at the board from a wide angle. The smart eggs aren't saying much. Or if they are, it's lost in the muck.

I'm picking on Abes cuz of the browser, you're shutting me down cuz you don't like me talking smack about Abelton. You tell a lot of legit folks to shut the fuck up. So what if it;s generalized, so what they can't explain to your tastes, so what they don't have proof that satisfies you. They are still trying to get a point out. Abelton doesn't need a hall-monitor. It's like defending Exxon's gas prices.

I don't entirely agree with suburbanThug, but his argument is rational and doesn't include the kind of fanboy finger pointing and ridiculous speculations about the inner workings of the company that you famously present, or the obvious bias of a troll like simp.

I'm sorry but your needy level of academic clarity is of no matter to me. You simply don't meet people half way. You demand that they come to you. No. You are unreasonable and are not finding a way to be with the convo. You look for wedges to defeat them staright out of the gate. You cherry pick key words and speculate a bunch yourself. Uh huh, yes you do.

I don't understand you at all. Yes, I know. You have bought every single update even though you complain that the program is near unusable for you every time. No, I never said that. You complain that the browser is a way for ableton to sell you canned content, and then YOU BUY canned content. Yes, but some of it is good canned content. Why do you keep spending your money on a product you find to be so "unprofessional?" Are you a masochist? No, I get a lot of use form Live. I love it and I hate it, but i want more to love about it. It's brilliant stuff that can be a whole helluva lot better Is it cheaper than paying a dom to crush your balls with stiletto heels? I didn't even touch your claim of spending 5 thousand dollars on ableton updates or your claim that they have a track record of being "wholly unfair or disorganized in their practices." And I'm glad. Closer to 4 maybe. Still true though, and not hard to do. Abelton's big version release's are actually the beta period! lol, and they get paid! Listen man, I bet there's a lot of employees working there that would like some improvements too. Some have left for greener pastures no? You got some words for them?

I've owned the program since v2 and have never simply bought an upgrade because it was out, i have always tested them out first and weighed my options. Believe me, if i ever experienced the scope of problems with the software that someone like you claims to have, i wouldn't spend a dime on an upgrade.

Awesome, but we ain't the same dude. You really need to stop referencing yourself as the center of all things for what others need. I still feel pals tho. Same team, different ideas. This is to be nurtured all around. Cheers bro

[knotkranky]

I think it goes back to whatever these professionals learned first and what was dominating the studio market back in the early days (pretty much Pro Tools). If the situation was reversed and everyone knew Live first, this fanboys/professional/plinker conversation wouldn't even exist. I've made money in Pro Tools and Logic (when I lived in Nashville), released 2 decent records, and gotten a few placements on tv and radio. That being said, if I had to choose between all DAWs whether it was a money gig or not- right now it would be a toss up between Reason, Live, and FL. People use the big boy DAWs because that's what they know and that's what everyone else in the industry is telling them to use. Oh and, long live plinkers! And fanboys for that matter- at least their glasses are half full.

Naw, it's about what works and never crashes. Reliability is king in the studio. You'll never see live holding up recording for a serious session. You may find an exception, but Live is not good enough for a $2k+ a day sessions. No way. We don't fuss, we work.

Pro tools HD is the best sounding , most reliable studio program on the market. It's proprietary for a reason. Quality control. And I'm no fanboy

[leisuremuffin]

i'm still not really reading a specific argument at all there.


I'm not "shutting you down because you're talking smack about ableton." I don't really give a fuck what you say about ableton, but if you say something stupid, i'm going to tell you that it's stupid. So here you go, your claim that the browser's shortcomings are a result of a nefarious plan to sell you 3rd party content is stupid. Your claim that "fanboys" (i still don't know who you mean specifically, me, someone else engaged in conversation in this thread, who?) are holding back the development of the program is stupid. And your need to label anyone who disagrees with you as a lowly amateur or plinker is fucking stupid.


give me a specific example of when i've "told legit folks to shut the fuck up." I don't think live is perfect, and i've had my own share of complaints. When people loudly make unfounded claims, or insult other users, i speak my mind. I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that this somehow harms ableton's development. And i've never told any rational user of this forum with a reasonable and well articulated argument to "shut the fuck up."


on your claim of forking out 4k:
If i paid $300 for version 1, and the $300 upgrade price i paid to go from live8 suite to live9 suite for every update to 9 that would be $2700 v1 cost less than $200 if my memory serves, and updates were less than $200 at first as well. There is no way that you paid close to $4000 dollars unless you somehow made some really bad deals.

You claim that "Ableton's big version releases are actually the beta period, lol, and they get paid." Can you provide any kind of specific argument that backs that up? If the software is that bad with every release, why on earth do you continue to buy? I personally have not found ableton to be any worse than any other software i have used. but i'm sure you'll just imply that i'm too amateur to realize the difference.

I'm not really interested in speculating about what ableton's employees are like. You seem to know a lot about ableton's employees and company structure though, why don't you tell me more about your fantastic inside information?

[knotkranky]

It's cool dude, I don't require you to understand or even listen to anything I'm on about.

I'm fishing for some affirmation, or a riff on my speculations, not an argument. It's the ableton forum.

But, i bet there are a few that might be in some kind of agreement. And they know better, lol.

You win! Enjoy

[leisuremuffin]

If you really want to get my attention, or for those who actually read my posts, pick a point or two you don't like and lets scrap.

but you're unable to deliver because you don't have a defensible position.

[knotkranky]

It doesn't need to be defended ffs.

oil n water

If winning is important, you did great.

[leisuremuffin]

i'm simply pointing out where you asked for a debate. I'm also pointing out that i gave you one and you couldn't deliver your half of it.

[knotkranky]

i'm simply pointing out where you asked for a debate. I'm also pointing out that i gave you one and you couldn't deliver your half of it.

Debating is exactly what's wrong with it. Semantics and he said she said ain't the point dude.

It's so silly that the burben of proof on those who want to change things for the better, must get past the likes of fanboys' personal experiences first. It must be an incredible responsibility. It's ludicrous to me. At least I know it's prolly just me

Speculation or not, ham-handed or not, I'm moving forward. You definitely are not moving forward. Unless protecting whatever you're protecting is progress.

[leisuremuffin]

dude, how are you for making things better by calling people names, insulting their level of experience, exaggerating how much you've spent on the software and saying a whole bunch of vague bullshit with absolutely nothing to back it up? Why should i listen to you talk a whole bunch of shit without any specific argument to back it up? Because you say it's good for the development of the program and i'm standing in the way? uh, right.

i've used live every single day for about a 2 month stretch right now (usually its more like 3 times a week for me, but i'm doing a lot right now). In that time, live crashed once, on exit of the program with zero work or time lost. When i was in Cali, i used live as my customized stompbox for guitar with a band that usually practiced once a week for 3 years with ZERO crashes.

that's pretty good for a piece of ware that you claim is a paid beta marketed to idiots.


I'm not trying to say that some people don't have issues with the program. I'm not trying to say that nothing can be improved about the program, i think it can, and i think that ableton has a track record of delivering its user's requests over time. Every wish that i asked for in the feature wishlist has come to pass. i had to wait a long time for some of them. and i've had to endure a lot of things i didn't ask for and didn't particularly want to be implemented, but literally everything i've asked for has come.


and as far as my experience goes, ableton has consistently delivered a product that works as well as any other software i have used. There is no software with the amount of complexity that live has that never has a bug. it does not exist.


whether or not the burden of proof is on you or me in this debate is a moot point, you have offered NOTHING even resembling a real argument.

[knotkranky]

dude, how are you for making things better by calling people names, insulting their level of experience, exaggerating how much you've spent on the software and saying a whole bunch of vague bullshit with absolutely nothing to back it up? I didn't do such a thing and backing it up is impossible, that's why you want it backed up, lmao! Pointing out someones expertise is a good thing, there are differences, it's not a level field thank goodness. Don;t give me this high and mighty were all the same crap. Christ man, yer losing yer head. Why should i listen to you talk a whole bunch of shit without any specific argument to back it up? Because you say it's good for the development of the program and i'm standing in the way? uh, right. Well, you don't have to listen to me. I'm actually hoping you stop listening to me. And you are in the way, not as much as your ego might think, but you do not help the broader picture. Nope.

i've used live every single day for about a 2 month stretch right now (usually its more like 3 times a week for me, but i'm doing a lot right now). In that time, live crashed once, on exit of the program with zero work or time lost. When i was in Cali, i used live as my customized stompbox for guitar with a band that usually practiced once a week for 3 years with ZERO crashes. It's not about you personal experiences. But by the same token, there are tons of anecdotal evidence from users with the opposite experience. But yer fucking leisuremuffin! I get it.

that's pretty good for a piece of ware that you claim is a paid beta marketed to idiots. FFS, your words. Why do you feel the need to miss rep me at this point? hmm?


I'm not trying to say that some people don't have issues with the program. I'm not trying to say that nothing can be improved about the program, i think it can, and i think that ableton has a track record of delivering its user's requests over loooooooong time. Every wish that i asked for in the feature wishlist has come to pass. So it is you! Oh shit! i knew it!! i had to wait a long time for some of them. and i've had to endure a lot of things i didn't ask for and didn't particularly want to be implemented, but literally everything i've asked for has come. It's..... not..... about..... you.


and as far as my experience goes, ableton has consistently delivered a product that works as well as any other software i have used. There is no software with the amount of complexity that live has that never has a bug. it does not exist. Can you back that up? <clears throat> pfft


whether or not the burden of proof is on you or me in this debate is a moot point, you have offered NOTHING even resembling a real argument. .... so says the myopic fanboy. You purposely stay away from that burden by swatting it back, demanding they show proof, lol. Very transparent. No, you are anti-helpful. You are a very good cock-blocker. Very talented.

[leisuremuffin]

points that knotkranky has dropped that i will assume he concedes as false:

1. His claim of spending 4 - 5k usd on ableton live and updates.

2. His claim that the shortcomings of the browser are a result of ableton attempting to pressure the users into buying canned content.

dude, how are you for making things better by calling people names, insulting their level of experience, exaggerating how much you've spent on the software and saying a whole bunch of vague bullshit with absolutely nothing to back it up?

I didn't do such a thing and backing it up is impossible, that's why you want it backed up, lmao! Pointing out someones expertise is a good thing, there are differences, it's not a level field thank goodness. Don;t give me this high and mighty were all the same crap. Christ man, yer losing yer head.

You did call people names. How may times have you said "fanboy" in this thread? You did insult people's level of experience in this thread and have numerous times in the past. And you have made claims with no attempt to back them up. i've listed two at the opening of this post and i will cover some more later in this post. I am NOT saying that we are all at the same level of experience. Of course i don't believe that. I also don't believe that i can tell a user's level of experience based on their opinion of the ableton live software. you have casually dismissed a large portion of ableton's users as beneath you here:

Fanboys are in the way. They shut all the smart talk down. There is no evolutionary path to Live from this forum. Except for ableton's huge army of low-bar users. Fanboys don't even know what they need, but there are so many, they actually get the nonsense feature upgrades they scream for. And that noise is well over the voices of really good dudes who know waayyyy more that will benefit the same fanboys ffs!

here you dismiss another user with no possible way to know their level of experience. Then you proceed to make another bizarre and unfounded claim about how ableton works as a company:

I don't know why you can't accept that Ableton isn't anymore interested supporting pro's
and the more advanced users. Those are bad customers and not much money to make from.

Well for one thing, Ableton Live is THE solution for live performance, and a lot of people who are playing live are so called more serious users. Second, I really do think it makes sense to include the pros in your user base as well, no matter how well your product is doing . Implying that these things are naturally mutually exclusive is absurd.

In any case, I'm not really interested in any 3phase crap, you've had a personal beef with Ableton for something like a decade now. You aren't interested in constructive criticism even if you sometimes make it seem like you are, you're just wishing to see Live do badly. I'm not a blind follower and can critique it pretty harshly when there is actual need to do so, and here too with an undertone of "hey seriously, improve this, you've still got a gem in your hands." You've just been here to kick up a stink for years.

no no no, that bs, his complaints over the years are legit. "Just get over it" is no retort to all that work he's put in "helping" to improve Live. You're flat wrong and have little understanding. Glad you're satisfied. Now out of the way please.

Ableton is not the face you see. They are investors, bankers and marketers that have last say after shit is designed. They changed the browser, not Henke.

get a clue.

that's pretty good for a piece of ware that you claim is a paid beta marketed to idiots.

FFS, your words. Why do you feel the need to miss rep me at this point? hmm?

very well, i'll concede the "marketed to idiots" was my interpretation of your overall message. you did, however, write this:

Abelton's big version release's are actually the beta period! lol, and they get paid!

so what does that mean? I don't think i'm misrepresenting your position.

i've used live every single day for about a 2 month stretch right now (usually its more like 3 times a week for me, but i'm doing a lot right now). In that time, live crashed once, on exit of the program with zero work or time lost. When i was in Cali, i used live as my customized stompbox for guitar with a band that usually practiced once a week for 3 years with ZERO crashes.

It's not about you personal experiences. But by the same token, there are tons of anecdotal evidence from users with the opposite experience. But yer fucking leisuremuffin! I get it.

Those descriptions of my personal experiences are specific, and illustrate why i disagree with your claim that live is unreliable and released as a paid beta. I am willing to entertain any specific evidence that you would like to present to support your claim that the software is unreliable and released a beta. I will happily accept any specific personal anecdote that you can provide from your own experience as truth. Please understand that I don't consider a statement like "it doesn't go when i push the gas" to be specific. I want to know a specific event that you can describe to me, an account of a crash, an account of lives behavior costing you time during a session. something like that.

and as far as my experience goes, ableton has consistently delivered a product that works as well as any other software i have used. There is no software with the amount of complexity that live has that never has a bug. it does not exist.

Can you back that up? <clears throat> pfft

actually, yes i can back that up and the proof is quite simple. Pick any music software at all, including your beloved pro tools and visit their website. Every one has customer support. Every product forum has complaints of bugs. Every single one.


there isn't really anything else in your post worth responding to.

[leisuremuffin]

and you know, there is a benefit to you providing specific gripes with the software rather than just vague complaints. Someone may actually have a solution for your problem. In your thread about presets, i also had complaints about the browser and learned about an undocumented feature! (ctrl click to open multiple folders) and had you read on, i actually had a good tip for how to manage the presets you do want to use in the live browser (save them with an altered name and they show up in your user library. This allows you to browse only the presets you are interested in.)

[knotkranky]

^ The difference between us is clear. Thanx bro, that was a nice scrap

I'll leave with one last line directed at know one else.

Ableton, I love ya. I believe in you. Now get your shit together.


oh, and apologies to Nokatus. I was most definitely out of line. Sorry mate. Thanx for pointing that out lm.

[leisuremuffin]

That's all you've got? You have the audacity to question anyone else's intellect and that's all you can muster? You should be ashamed of yourself.

edit: well an apology to that guy is a start. I'm proud of you for that, kk. you see, its not that i'm opposed to any "anti-ableton" message that you might have. I may even agree with you if you can provide a real case that doesn't involve name calling or vague speculation.