Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:50 am

leisuremuffin wrote:That's all you've got? You have the audacity to question anyone else's intellect and that's all you can muster? You should be ashamed of yourself.
lol, well i'm not. And that's all i need fanboy :P

FFS! I've question no one's intellect dickhead. Yer all flustered now and suddenly polite, lol.

pot, meet kettle.
Last edited by knotkranky on Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:56 am

knotkranky wrote:
FFS! I've question no one's intellect dickhead. Yer all flustered now.

you did indeed do so and even apologized for it. I salute you for that. Unless you want to argue what exactly "you have little understanding" means.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:05 am

leisuremuffin wrote:
knotkranky wrote:
FFS! I've question no one's intellect dickhead. Yer all flustered now.

you did indeed do so and even apologized for it. I salute you for that. Unless you want to argue what exactly "you have little understanding" means.

listen dude, i'm not sure that there are many more members than you that lay waist to other forum dudes.

You're one of the rudest. I'm returning in kind. I don't get where yer coming from. Why are you all 'Dudley Do Right' all of a sudden?

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:09 am

i think your characterization of me as rude is completely unfair in relation to the exchange we've had here. I'm not the one doing all of the name calling and spouting of unsupported claims.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:16 am

leisuremuffin wrote:i think your characterization of me as rude is completely unfair in relation to the exchange we've had here. I'm not the one doing all of the name calling and spouting of unsupported claims.
Forget the relation, you're aggressive as all hell and a brow-beater. Now you're adjusting your ascot.

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:07 am

To those it may concern. No more bitching for me :)

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=194904

Forge.
Posts: 5792
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:16 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Forge. » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:01 am

Angstrom wrote: My comment about the stock presets is because (based on outcomes)I can only picture their internal discussion like this:

SPEC MEETING GUYS ! We need to bring our customers attention more to the add-on content and the added value it brings. We are competing against Apple Loops on one side and NI's sound banks on the other, we hear no end of "GarageBand with all its content is better than Live". Our partners feel that their affiliations could be better promoted by us, be made more findable, and be put into findable categories more easily, perhaps automatically, and so on. So driving more sales of packs. So what's the solution?
---
How about : we redesign the browser so that our content and our partners packs are installed directly into pre-formatted categories, that everyone will use. We'll determine which are the correct categorisations for everything and then make a big authoritative hierarchic tree and categorise everything we can. Then - put some main filters in the browser with the top 5 things which everybody looks for.

[/b]


you're missing a massive piece of the puzzle without Push. All through the alpha/beta I was puzzled by the browser until I got Push then it all made sense. I don't think it's about content really at all, it's totally about push.

But Ironically, there is a lot of discussion in the Push forum about the browser on that being inadequate, and my contribution was to say that I would advise against trying to do much browsing with it at all because in any situation you use it you will almost certainly have a laptop sitting right next to it with a 13" + colour screen and the limitations of the Push browser shit me so quickly that I tend to just push the browse button to open the browser then do the rest on the laptop.

My biggest greivance with L9's browser is the fact that there's no longer a home drive and you have to add a folder if you use a USB stick or something.

other than that I'm pretty happy with 9 overall. I prefer it to 8.

Forge.
Posts: 5792
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:16 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Forge. » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:53 am

knotkranky wrote:To those it may concern. No more bitching for me :)

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=194904
I found this thread because you alluded to the drama and now I've skimmed through the whole thread

you two should get a room :lol:

It's funny to hear people getting so passionate about it - I guess I burned myself out form years of being maybe the squeakiest wheel on here and I've just had a quite long break where I really almost thought I was done with music. Now I've come full circle and I'm getting back into it and I honestly have very little to say about Live any more. For me it's the one I'm most in the habit of using, I have Logic too but I work much more quickly in Live so I just use Live now

I will be interested to see what people say when their Pushes arrive because it seems a lot of people here are not seeing how much that has played a part in the design decisions of 9. It must have been a major undertaking and I think a lot had to be sacrificed. I guess L10 will be where that gets ironed out

there's a lot of problems with the way push works too, and I have kind of mixed feelings about it in a way currently. There's no doubt it's played a part in me getting inspired again, but recording a MIDI clip that's not drums is really quite shitty really. There's currently no way to edit a MIDI part or change it by the note. Even just being able to hold delete to erase notes momentarily would be a massive start, and that seems like it could be something they could change in a sub-release so I imagine they will, but currently it's quite a PITA recording MIDI clips because you have to basically start again if you fuck up

it's also really not a live tool - the aim was to get you away from the computer, and in some ways I think it's definitely helped with that, but in others not at all. Browsing being the main one. I just can't see any reason to persevere with that little monochrome LCD when there's a laptop next door. but I'm sure others are more keen to make the effort

I think if you put some effort in beforehand to organize a library for easy push access then it could be more live, but currently it's more for composition IMO.

But it's got me making music again.

Point being, this was a total new direction, so some things had to take 2nd place for the moment. But overall I am enjoying using L9 + Push without too many whinges.

joeyfivecents
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:18 am
Location: Augusta, GA USA
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by joeyfivecents » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:23 am

knotkranky wrote:
joeyfivecents wrote:I think it goes back to whatever these professionals learned first and what was dominating the studio market back in the early days (pretty much Pro Tools). If the situation was reversed and everyone knew Live first, this fanboys/professional/plinker conversation wouldn't even exist. I've made money in Pro Tools and Logic (when I lived in Nashville), released 2 decent records, and gotten a few placements on tv and radio. That being said, if I had to choose between all DAWs whether it was a money gig or not- right now it would be a toss up between Reason, Live, and FL. People use the big boy DAWs because that's what they know and that's what everyone else in the industry is telling them to use. Oh and, long live plinkers! And fanboys for that matter- at least their glasses are half full.
Naw, it's about what works and never crashes. Reliability is king in the studio. You'll never see live holding up recording for a serious session. You may find an exception, but Live is not good enough for a $2k+ a day sessions. No way. We don't fuss, we work.

Pro tools HD is the best sounding , most reliable studio program on the market. It's proprietary for a reason. Quality control. And I'm no fanboy :D
Don't just dismiss something someone says with a "naw....." and don't presume to educate me about the studio. Pro Tools HD sounds the same as every other DAW. Live IS good enough. FL IS good enough. You and all the other snobby "pro" engineers have just never taken the time to learn or understand their workflow and approach. I was all for being diplomatic and providing an outside looking in observation on this ridiculous argument until you quoted me and dismissed my opinion with a "naw" and some bullshit about being in a studio. I've been in many studios where they couldn't figure out how to do something in PT (time stretching, etc.) and I subsequently load the project in the laptop with Live and solve the problem. This whole Pro Tools thing is bullshit. And if Live is so inadequate, stop using it, stop buying it, and leave this forum. That's the problem with this forum- nobody wants to help anyone actually make music. They want to sit around and argue and pounce on anyone who has a different opinion or someone who doesn't know every little detail about Live because they spend their time making actual music. There's a reason I've been here since 2004 but don't have many posts: I was making music with Live (and PT, Logic, Reason, FL) and having a little success. Oh and my Pro Tools rig is sitting in a desk drawer because it sucks.
iMac, MacBook Pro, Live Suite, Reason, Logic Pro, Melodyne, FL Studio, iConnect Audio4+, Little Martin, ukelele, Fender Jaguar, pedalboard, amps, mics .
http://www.soundcloud.com/gradynickel

re:dream
Posts: 4554
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by re:dream » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:17 pm

@ knotkranky:

Hmm, I am generally positive around Ableton but I am fully prepared to accept that it can't do what fully featured studio DAWs like Protools and Cubase can do. I have played around on both, and I personally would never use them; they don't help me do what I want to do which is to be experimental and creative with music. And were I to be an audio engineer etc I would not use Live for the stuff that Cubase and Protools are best at. That would be silly.

The question is whether there are important places where Live falls down as a *creative* tool. If I want to do a performance of my music, using Live, what are the actual issues I should be worried about? And I still don't have a clear idea just what the problems are. I hear talk of PDC, but personally plugin delays have not been a problem for me. I hear some people have objections to the way they have done session automation; but I haven't heard what a better way would look like.

All thus stuff about fanboys and shutting the smart talk down does make things any clearer. It just leads to flame wars and insults which doesn't illuminate the issue much.

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:29 pm

@ joeyfivecents - "naw" was just a casual way to say I don't agree with you. No dismissiveness intended. It was a respectful reply to your comment. Sorry. Read again in a Mr. Rogers voice. Regardless, you'll never find live working a recording music session as the studio workstation because it was never designed to do that. It might be marketed as such, but It has nothing to do with engineers taking the time. Try recording and comping vocals in live. No way mate. but this isn't a point to make. We're off in the weeds.

I didn't mean any disrespect. Cheers

knotkranky
Posts: 4336
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: la

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:44 pm

The Finn wrote:@ knotkranky:

Hmm, I am generally positive around Ableton but I am fully prepared to accept that it can't do what fully featured studio DAWs like Protools and Cubase can do. I have played around on both, and I personally would never use them; they don't help me do what I want to do which is to be experimental and creative with music. And were I to be an audio engineer etc I would not use Live for the stuff that Cubase and Protools are best at. That would be silly.

The question is whether there are important places where Live falls down as a *creative* tool. If I want to do a performance of my music, using Live, what are the actual issues I should be worried about? And I still don't have a clear idea just what the problems are. I hear talk of PDC, but personally plugin delays have not been a problem for me. I hear some people have objections to the way they have done session automation; but I haven't heard what a better way would look like.

All thus stuff about fanboys and shutting the smart talk down does make things any clearer. It just leads to flame wars and insults which doesn't illuminate the issue much.
Agreed, good post. and much of my points have been swept up in arguing trying to get back to my point. I'm just not very good at it. My intentions are to protest in a wide swath. It has it;s disadvantages. The fighting from fanboy number one has done it's work. He's good, lol. Regardless, the forum environment is not healthy for power-users. gearslutz is the best example where top shakers and movers drop in and lay down their wisdom and critiques. It's not a software forum, but it shows how levels of users can actually interact positively. This place was sort of birthed on trollers and still carries that torch, lol. My passion is directed at abelton first, and that's not unreasonable. It's just that one has to walk an endless gauntlet. I use fanboy as a derogatory term that I may have redefined. It's not to be confused with fan.

erikomic
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:36 am

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by erikomic » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:56 pm

SuburbanThug wrote:This is why the browser does not work well for a studio but works fine for the home user and why implementation of Max/MSP or the Glue compressor into the Suite package takes precedence over Plugin Delay Compensation and Dual Monitor Support.
I think studio professionnals often bitch about finding their favourite plugin in too long dropdown menu-lists and this browser does that really well if you just know the name of what your looking for...
I don't really know why home-studio users should not have a browser not as efficient as studios pros...

personally I don't use glue compressor it doesn't has half the specs of what the generic compressor has. it sounds more like they should have called it "compressor for dummies" than "glue".
so I wish I could trade for plugin delay compensation tool instead (wich I regret everyday)

leisuremuffin
Posts: 4721
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:45 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:14 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
knotkranky wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:People buying the software, pros or not, is what builds the capital that affords ableton to develop better stuff for all of us to use. Do you really think that live isn't getting better every release?
As a solid platform, It barely matures. It's always bratty as all fuck. Fanboys don't care tho.
ok, again, here's my problem, "It's bratty as fuck" doesn't mean anything. I'm pretty sure i have more hours on live than you, and like i said, i've been using it everyday for a long stretch right now. I have some complaints, but reliability is not one of them. Also, what does "fanboys don't care" mean? Again, who are fanboys, what makes you think that they don't care about reliability, and why does that even matter? I don't see any proof that it does. You claim that because really dumb people buy the software and don't care if it works, ableton gets to put out a broken piece of software and walk off to the bank chuckling about stupid fanboys. That is ridiculous. Yes, Ableton is a business. Yes, Ableton wants to make money. But it is not an effective strategy to sell people a shitty product. If you sell them a shitty product, they wont spend any more money on it. If Ableton is delivering what you consider to be an inferior product, it isn't because they are trying to do it on purpose as a business strategy.
knotkranky wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote: Would live really be better if only the features you thought were important were added and in the order that you deem correct? why?
I don't want more features,It's already an 89 blade swiss army knife. i want a mature solid Ableton Live platform that doesn't aggravate me every 'new features' release. In comparison to other music software, it really stands out in this regard,

First of all, i don't think you know too much about me. I used to argue passionately against the addition of new features that i didn't want. I used to say that i would prefer a scalpel to a swiss army knife. But the truth is, some of those features that i didn't want ended up being pretty cool. I now use some of those features every day! In my opinion, live is not suffering from horrible feature bloat. It has way less "features" and clutter than something like logic, which is so ugly in that regard.

Please qualify how live is bad compared to other music software. What other software? Just because you say it over and over doesn't make it true. What is specifically so bad?
knotkranky wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote: I just don't see any evidence that amateur users are holding back the development of the app, or unduly watering down the feature pool. Max for live is a pretty big deal and thats not a feature that was added for plinkers.
I never said that, that's not what i'm communicating, you have no ears, you don't consider the context, you cherry pick the best car wreck you can put together, you are king of the fanboys and that evidence is overwhelming. You are the central cpu for the Live-Borg. Resistance is most futile to say the least. Yes, max is truly fucking awesome you nutter.
So put it in context for me. What is your point? Again, you are name calling and finger pointing, but you aren't presenting anything that looks like an argument. You say a whole bunch of shit, and then say, "i never said that." I don't understand why you think that you should be able to just say unqualified shit like "live is bratty as all fuck" while taking an attitude of "i'm so much better than you" without anyone questioning you. Seriously, its not just me, look at the way you act when you talk to other people. Nobody fucking cares how great of an engineer you are, bro. Nobody likes people who respond to an opinion with "No, you're to dumb to understand. I'm a pro. Pros can never do that because were busy being pros." It's rude, it's arrogant, and since you don't have any real argument, it's incredibly fucking lame.


do you get it yet?

It's especially frustrating that you are admitting to not being a heavy user of the software, How are you telling me, the guy who uses it every day, how bad it is and how much you know better when you aren't using the software as much?


sorry, but you don't get to just divert all of this out of the thread if you're going to keep saying stuff in this thread.
TimeableFloat ???S?e?n?d?I?n?f?o


Post Reply