Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Tone Deft
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:56 pm

The Finn wrote:plin k, plink, plink 8)
serious lol, HA!

the other DAWs are starting to go plink plink plink as well. in time Ableton won't be able to rely on cornering the plink market. I was sure that Live 9 would be that release where they added more mature DAW features (I don't dig the label Pro) instead they added tactile plink, for a freaking grand (h/w plus upgrade plus taxes and whatnot) it's basically a 4 figure plinky upgrade. with a new and annoying browser apparently.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

knotkranky
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:11 pm

yeah, the 'pro' tag isn't popular around here. The definition is all mucked up these days.

Pro really means one thing to me; When I step on the gas, it's right there with me. No issues. ZOOOOM!

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:31 pm

knotkranky wrote:It's tamed cuz Abes and the fanboys beat down the ballers. You, me and a bunch of fine users stretching live out and participating in its sideways evolution are simply tired. The changes ( i won't call them improvements other than Push ) are a boon for Abes. It is what it is. Fine, I get enough fun and music through the program regardless.

Live is still not a professional program for me. And ableton has proved time and again that they are a fanboy centric company that many professionals will use anyway. That sounds fine, but it's not a professional paradigm. If you put a VW beetle carburator on a Ferrari, it will accelerate like a VW beetle.


edit: plinkers was a harsh generalization. fixed^

You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because i can write and mix music in the same environment that i will perform it on stage. If i didn't do that, there would be a ton of software for me to choose from. However, as it stands, there is currently NOTHING else available that will do that. Point at me and cry "fanboy" all you want, but i can assure you that i will be happy to try any product that can actually compete with live for the way I use it and if its better, i will switch right away. If it's not a professional program, please explain why 90% of electronic musicians i've seen perform in the last 5 years are using it?


There's a difference between constructive criticism of a product and saying the same bullshit over and over again -- "live isn't professional software" "the suits at ableton are intentionally fucking me to increase their bottom line" "fanboy fanboy fanboy"

face the facts, kranky, for all of its flaws, live is the only thing available that does what it does. You don't need it to do those things so just move on and use what works for you. I can't take pro tools or cubase on stage so i don't try to. and i don't go on their forums crying about how their companies are engaged in a conspiracy to ruin the experience for me because they only listen to crusty aging audio engineers who are rapidly losing relevance instead on making the kind of software that professional performing electronic musicians want to use.


there are a lot of people here that have very valid complaints about live and don't feel the need to be complete shit bags when they describe them and complain about them. You and simpliciwhatever just aren't among those.
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Guillermo Barrancos
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:48 pm

At the moment I really have two major complaints with Ableton.

1. Their absurd lack of communication regarding Push availability.
Right now my desire to get Push is completely killed. Not only because of the utter lack of communication, but also the fact that if you happen to have bad luck and end up with a defective unit, you may end up waiting 3 months or longer to get a replacement! Leaving you empty handed and down 600 bucks!

2. After a whole year still no official Retina / High resolution display support! Especially now since early this year Windows laptops have also entered the scene with High resolution displays.
Seeing how many Ableton Users are on Mac, it´s just absurd and pretty disrespectful towards your loyal userbase to ignore this for so long!

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:53 pm

if that's all you can come up with you're in great shape.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:55 pm

yeah they really shat the bed with push's availability. I'd really like one, but i will not order a product made by a company the size of ableton/akai that has a delivery time of one and 1/2 to three months. That's fucking crazy. I'd understand if it was a boutique company building shit by hand but that is outrageous. I will buy once they are readily available if that ever happens.
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erikomic
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by erikomic » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:59 pm

leisuremuffin wrote: The primary reason I use live, is because i can write and mix music in the same environment that i will perform it on stage. ... for all of its flaws, live is the only thing available that does what it does.
Yep. I think Live is still miles ahead of "traditionnal DAWS" for that exact reason.

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:08 pm

Tone Deft wrote:if that's all you can come up with you're in great shape.
Not really. The more I have used Live the past days on my new Retina MBP the more frustrated I have become.
Sure it works, but I cannot use Live too long, before my eyes get really tired due to the blurry text. This is worse for people, like me, who already have to use computer glasses.

Regarding Push, it turned out into a huge fiasco if you ask me. Hyping it up so much with big fanfare on the front page with "PUSH IS HERE!" ...while it totally isn´t!
I was really looking forward to just have a single all in one controller and no longer having to use a seperate keyboard + controller. Especially since I have very little space.
But right now, especially after hearing and reading reports about unlucky people who ended up with a defective unit back in March/Early April and are still waiting today to get a replacement, my desire to get Push has completely evaporated.

Bottom line is, they should have waited with the announcement / release of Push, untill they were ready and able to produce and deliver it!
Ableton and Akai can learn a lot from Native Instruments in this regard.

Tone Deft
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:32 pm

you never actually ordered a Push, you just read whining on the web. whatever...

retina display rants make me LOL, so much for overpriced hardware. too clever for its own good.

good luck!
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by re:dream » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:32 pm

I am following the this debate with some interest.

I am completely and utterly and amateur (plinker and proud of it!) but serious about making music to the extent that I want to get to the point in the next few years where I can do a live show of my own music, so I am really interested in hearing people's concerns about the quality of the software and Live's direction.

But it's kind of hard to make out how serious the objections really and why some people are so pissed off. ( I should say my previous experiences of making music involve actual instruments, like flutes and violins and things, and they all have hellish design problems, which you kind of work around, so that influences my attitude... Every musical instrument will have its limitationss, and you have to learn to work within them. The issue is whether they are crippling flaws (example: an oboe) or just things you can live with.) I am trying to work out which problems of Live are just little niggles and which ones are actual crimes against humanity.
  • * I understand some people are getting lots of crashes. I don't, but then I don't push the software to its limits.

    * I understand there is a problem about plugin delay compensation. I haven't experienced it, and I would like to know under what conditions it comes up as a problem.

    * I also understand there are problems with session automation... but I still need to get my head around using those things in a live context. I don't know whether they are deal breakers or just things you have to work with.
As far as I can see those are the serious problems, in the sense that they are features that would cause real difficulties with use and performance
  • * No undo quantize for midi record. I can't see why this is serious. I never bothered with that with Live 5, 6, 7, or 8. I can't see why it is such a bad problem. If quantizing fucks up your timing, put global quantize on off. If you can't play in time, fucking well learn how to play in time. Sorry.

    * No dual monitor support. Maybe it's just because I don't have two monitors, but it really doesn't bother me. It is clear that Ableton is trying to get you to a place where you don't have to look at a screen *at all*, so I would be very surprised if they put in dual monitor support. Especially seeing as you can get it through M4L.

    * No retina support. Puh-lease.

    * The browser. Yes, it's clunky. But I have managed to set up my browser so that I (1) don't have to go to the Ableton categories if I don't want to (2) all my presets show up within the Ableton 'sounds' categories (3) I *can* have all my folders *and* their subdolders included under *my places*. So that's an improvement on the previous browser, which in my view sucked canal water. Quite a lot of the complaints about the browser seem resolvable through workarounds or proper use... Then again, it is clunky. My sample library is quite small, and I can understand that power users with tera- , peta- and yottabytes of samples would have real difficulties, and that a really good browser would allow for tagging, etc etc. But those difficulties seem fixable, in that the present, still-clunky-but-better-than-before browser can be improved. My assumption is that constructive feedback generally helps. ( I work in a bureaucratic organization and I have learned the hard way that, angry as I am, complaining does not help; coming forward with workable solutions does. So that's my bias)

    * "Ableton's browser is a sneaky plan to get you to buy licensed content." If so, it's a pretty crappy plan. I have been using the new browser just about every day for, um, let's see, four months now, and I have not had the faintest desire to buy any live packs. The only packs I have installed are tarekith's DJ toys (awesome) and winterpark's harmonium (sweet). Both for free. If you don't want live packs, don't use them. I don't see what the browser's got to do with it.
Maybe the whole game will change when BitWhen comes out. Or should it be BitIf? But for now, Live is the only software that I have seen that gets me to making music with some kind of intuitive flow and flexibility. I hope they can fix some of the real issues; but I still have not seen anything that makes me buy the conspiracy theories / Abes have sold out their users kind of theories.

Just my two cents 8)

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:48 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
knotkranky wrote:It's tamed cuz Abes and the fanboys beat down the ballers. You, me and a bunch of fine users stretching live out and participating in its sideways evolution are simply tired. The changes ( i won't call them improvements other than Push ) are a boon for Abes. It is what it is. Fine, I get enough fun and music through the program regardless.

Live is still not a professional program for me. And ableton has proved time and again that they are a fanboy centric company that many professionals will use anyway. That sounds fine, but it's not a professional paradigm. If you put a VW beetle carburator on a Ferrari, it will accelerate like a VW beetle.


edit: plinkers was a harsh generalization. fixed^

You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because i can write and mix music in the same environment that i will perform it on stage. If i didn't do that, there would be a ton of software for me to choose from. However, as it stands, there is currently NOTHING else available that will do that. Point at me and cry "fanboy" all you want, but i can assure you that i will be happy to try any product that can actually compete with live for the way I use it and if its better, i will switch right away. If it's not a professional program, please explain why 90% of electronic musicians i've seen perform in the last 5 years are using it?


There's a difference between constructive criticism of a product and saying the same bullshit over and over again -- "live isn't professional software" "the suits at ableton are intentionally fucking me to increase their bottom line" "fanboy fanboy fanboy"

face the facts, kranky, for all of its flaws, live is the only thing available that does what it does. You don't need it to do those things so just move on and use what works for you. I can't take pro tools or cubase on stage so i don't try to. and i don't go on their forums crying about how their companies are engaged in a conspiracy to ruin the experience for me because they only listen to crusty aging audio engineers who are rapidly losing relevance instead on making the kind of software that professional performing electronic musicians want to use.


there are a lot of people here that have very valid complaints about live and don't feel the need to be complete shit bags when they describe them and complain about them. You and simpliciwhatever just aren't among those.
You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because….
Ok, first off, you're a blatant selfish hypocrite that didn't read my post at all. You saw keywords and went emotional fanboy. Btw, I regret the plinkers tag tho I'm really just a plinker on it too, but i require some serious improvements so that I may plink well!

Basically, you've said that my opinion, that I clarified was mine and only mine, is shite and yours is not. I'm fine with that distinction, but you are not. lol

If you really want to get my attention, or for those who actually read my posts, pick a point or two you don't like and lets scrap. But don't throw down a why live is great tirade when i'm using the fucking thing. C'mon man I deserve a better response that your patented retort to bitching users. Read my shit carefully. I deserve it.

I never said Live is not professional. Nope. I said it's not professional to "ME", cuz of the way i use it dude. Which by and large is not unreasonable. mkay.

Besides, Ableton doesn't have a defensible track record of fair releases n stuff. They are wholly unfair or disorganized in their practices. It's as unique as the program and a major pita. The hoop-jumping is off the hook! They deserve a swift kick in the ass while I tongue them with my wallet. Dig? Yes, they fucking deserve it. And they'll be fine no matter how rough it gets. They don't need your protection dude. But you do need to stop equivocating.

Please, Abes loves the fuck out of me with my 4 to 5 thousand dollars in Live since v1. So, lets dispense with the obvious and utterly unique attributes of live as fighting points. It's weak as fuck in helping what needs to be improved. I'm in your choir mate. If that's your argument, after your bitching about the browser, what good are you for influencing a better Live? You're not helping. You are precisely that fanboy that's in the way of progress. The browser protest is a good protest, but you won't allow it to go too far. It's simply reduced to forum banter that discourages the real experienced ballers. Not good. Not good at all.

Want to fix the browser? 50 user threads hovering on the front page for a few months from live users complaining on this very board might do wonders.

Raise hell everybody. Raise hell and change stuff. And let the experienced ballers do their thing and jump on their train people. It will benefit everybody. Cock-blocking such things means more of whatever the hell abes wants for you. Abes says they'll listen to you? Well then, be heard.

c'mon!....

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by Angstrom » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:59 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I think the biggest sign that they're off in the weeds is that the usual post-release unreasonably angry (YMMV) forum rants against Live 9 are totally reasonable, calm, rational discussions on 9's faults. no hyperbole required. I guess they fcuked up the software and tamed the forum. ha!
Yes, I agree. Everybody on the forum is remaining reasonable and calm when stating their issues. It certainly makes a positive difference!
Well done everyone 8)

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:13 am

knotkranky wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:
knotkranky wrote:It's tamed cuz Abes and the fanboys beat down the ballers. You, me and a bunch of fine users stretching live out and participating in its sideways evolution are simply tired. The changes ( i won't call them improvements other than Push ) are a boon for Abes. It is what it is. Fine, I get enough fun and music through the program regardless.

Live is still not a professional program for me. And ableton has proved time and again that they are a fanboy centric company that many professionals will use anyway. That sounds fine, but it's not a professional paradigm. If you put a VW beetle carburator on a Ferrari, it will accelerate like a VW beetle.


edit: plinkers was a harsh generalization. fixed^

You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because i can write and mix music in the same environment that i will perform it on stage. If i didn't do that, there would be a ton of software for me to choose from. However, as it stands, there is currently NOTHING else available that will do that. Point at me and cry "fanboy" all you want, but i can assure you that i will be happy to try any product that can actually compete with live for the way I use it and if its better, i will switch right away. If it's not a professional program, please explain why 90% of electronic musicians i've seen perform in the last 5 years are using it?


There's a difference between constructive criticism of a product and saying the same bullshit over and over again -- "live isn't professional software" "the suits at ableton are intentionally fucking me to increase their bottom line" "fanboy fanboy fanboy"

face the facts, kranky, for all of its flaws, live is the only thing available that does what it does. You don't need it to do those things so just move on and use what works for you. I can't take pro tools or cubase on stage so i don't try to. and i don't go on their forums crying about how their companies are engaged in a conspiracy to ruin the experience for me because they only listen to crusty aging audio engineers who are rapidly losing relevance instead on making the kind of software that professional performing electronic musicians want to use.


there are a lot of people here that have very valid complaints about live and don't feel the need to be complete shit bags when they describe them and complain about them. You and simpliciwhatever just aren't among those.
You are so full of shit. What you forget, is that not everybody wants to use live the way you do. The primary reason I use live, is because….
Ok, first off, you're a blatant selfish hypocrite that didn't read my post at all. You saw keywords and went emotional fanboy. Btw, I regret the plinkers tag tho I'm really just a plinker on it too, but i require some serious improvements so that I may plink well!

Basically, you've said that my opinion, that I clarified was mine and only mine, is shite and yours is not. I'm fine with that distinction, but you are not. lol

If you really want to get my attention, or for those who actually read my posts, pick a point or two you don't like and lets scrap. But don't throw down a why live is great tirade when i'm using the fucking thing. C'mon man I deserve a better response that your patented retort to bitching users. Read my shit carefully. I deserve it.

I never said Live is not professional. Nope. I said it's not professional to "ME", cuz of the way i use it dude. Which by and large is not unreasonable. mkay.

Besides, Ableton doesn't have a defensible track record of fair releases n stuff. They are wholly unfair or disorganized in their practices. It's as unique as the program and a major pita. The hoop-jumping is off the hook! They deserve a swift kick in the ass while I tongue them with my wallet. Dig? Yes, they fucking deserve it. And they'll be fine no matter how rough it gets. They don't need your protection dude. But you do need to stop equivocating.

Please, Abes loves the fuck out of me with my 4 to 5 thousand dollars in Live since v1. So, lets dispense with the obvious and utterly unique attributes of live as fighting points. It's weak as fuck in helping what needs to be improved. I'm in your choir mate. If that's your argument, after your bitching about the browser, what good are you for influencing a better Live? You're not helping. You are precisely that fanboy that's in the way of progress. The browser protest is a good protest, but you won't allow it to go too far. It's simply reduced to forum banter that discourages the real experienced ballers. Not good. Not good at all.

Want to fix the browser? 50 user threads hovering on the front page for a few months from live users complaining on this very board might do wonders.

Raise hell everybody. Raise hell and change stuff. And let the experienced ballers do their thing and jump on their train people. It will benefit everybody. Cock-blocking such things means more of whatever the hell abes wants for you. Abes says they'll listen to you? Well then, be heard.

c'mon!....

if you think that your blathering on this forum is going to change anything, you are seriously deluded. I'm all for people communicating their problems with live, but you just say the same shit over and over again year after year. "knotkranky doesn't think the software is professional" isn't a talking point at the ableton development headquarters, get over yourself. I'm sure that "a lot of users don't like the new browser" is a talking point. It's the same thing with your buddy that you came in this thread to defend, that guy's criticism is fucking meaningless because he obviously has an unreasonable bias against the software that has nothing to do with its usability. If you want to see what a user whose complaints are reasonable and well articulated looks like, look at the guy who just posted above me.
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knotkranky
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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by knotkranky » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:19 am

wow

nevermind dude

cheers

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Re: Top 5 things I will regret after going from Live8 to Live9

Post by leisuremuffin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:29 am

wow yourself.

i would say something else to you but the investors, bankers and marketers that review all of my posts before i make them told me not to.
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