mIcrotonal support in LIve

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
jaakked
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:48 pm

mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by jaakked » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:05 am

Hello!

I've been a long time Electronic Musician and recently I've tried to become more involved with the community of live users(somewhat at least).

My main issue is that Ableton seems to have NO REGARD AT ALL for any tuning possibilities outside 12 tone equal temperament. Live 9 tries to throw in the kitchen sink in most areas BUT not here(not to mention tuplet implementation outside of "stretching" MIDI data).

Believe it or not most music throughout history did not use 12 TET. Much today still doesn't. I know some folks that got involved in electronic music for this reason alone. Many "old" guys I know don't take Ableton seriously because of this.Is Live not designed to push boundaries? I remember in 1994 when I got a Kurzweil K2000 with microtonal support and I thought "finally the wave of the future is now".Most other DAWS have SOME kind of microtonal support(albeit limited).Why has Ableton completely ignored this?

Perhaps worse yet in this regard,many younger Live users aren't even aware of the possibility because they are learning electronic music through Live.

Through Max/MSP,Scala,LMSO and some VST's I am able to continue my microtonal work but it would be so nice to this issue addressed directly in Live.

Am I alone here?

chapelier fou
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:24 am

jaakked wrote: Through Max/MSP,Scala,LMSO and some VST's I am able to continue my microtonal work
Would you mind explaining your workarounds ?
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

su
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:09 am

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by su » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:14 pm

What about Live's scale midi effect?

[edit]

bah, just checked and scale is constrained to semitones
Last edited by su on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ikeaboy
Posts: 1685
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:38 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by ikeaboy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:14 pm

Interesting as I was only just reading about the "lock in" effect midi has on musical notes in 'You are not a Gadget' by Jason Lanier. Here's a quote from a review.
Lanier cites the longevity and pervasiveness of MIDI as an example of a kind of technological “lock-in” which makes it quite hard for us to imagine other, better alternatives that may be possible. Lanier reminds us that once upon a time, before the advent of MIDI, a musical note was a limitless field of possibility; in fact, when a musician plays an instrument or sings, no two notes are ever the same. But MIDI reduced music and we bowed before this new limitation, using “crappy tools” to make music that in many ways was (and still is) much more limited than old-fashioned acoustic music.
Not really about tuning as opposed to performance and expression but theres a lot of common ground looking at the source of the limitations

jaakked
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by jaakked » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:03 pm

chapelier fou wrote:
jaakked wrote: Through Max/MSP,Scala,LMSO and some VST's I am able to continue my microtonal work
Would you mind explaining your workarounds ?
These days for quick easy stuff I've been using 3rd party stuff.Mostly Madrona labs Aalto and U-he plugs.Both allow me to easily import tuning files.

When ambitious I write little apps in Max/MSP and use Soundflower(I think is Mac only but not sure) to port the audio.I've yet to try porting anything to Max for Live.I'm a bit hesitant because in Max it took me a LONG time to do things parsing frequencies and I haven't wrapped my head around how to get these things into a MIDI approach.

I REALLY want an easy way to import tuning files into Operator and Sampler.The best(and far from optimal)I've been able to come up with is use an app. called Lil Miss Scale Oven which can retune these using MIDI pitch bend messages.They appear to only work monophonically this way which has become too much a pain in the ass for me.I do use Lil Miss scale oven(and you can also use Scala) to create my tuning files which I then use in the U-he etc. plugs. Ideally I would like to see some solution for Operator and Sampler that somehow "transcends" MIDI somehow.No idea how though,I'm not that smart :cry: .Lots of smart folks ay ableton though :wink: .

chapelier fou
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:26 pm

Thanks, i'll have a look !
Couldn't manage to have any luck with midi and max neither.
One thing i once tried is (if i remember well):
Make a rack.
Load your preset 12 times, one per note.
Adjust zones
map the detune for each chain.

can't remember if it worked, though. Maybe there is something to dig in there.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

chapelier fou
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:30 pm

Well, it would work if we were allowed to put different note zones within a single chain...
A m4l note filter could do the job, maybe...
Last edited by chapelier fou on Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

chapelier fou
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:05 pm

This seem to work :

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
797.3ocyWssiaBCD8YxWABo9VZD1PXS5as+FaWsxI3k3UfcjsIMaW0+8ZO.I
jDfvxRQ8Em3qy4blYrGdeli2FwQpxy8atO55379LGGXH6.Nk8c7xHG2lRTvx
71Jxxnbs27h4zziZX7Tp1UuSJxS18Sd0r77LF2LCrUT4fuH3ZNIiBa66RFI0
8Ghz3p8rWRUFCPzLA+YIcqt.cHzB+4tgPazRaKZ0Be2mNaIQttxT9UlRlrA5
unZj8D81cLdR8SNzGNtH3nCu4ns3Uw9MfWTsSpFNqSOVLPLwlW+Z3Cd1w9yr
Y1l48Tg4zeY17MBr1k4x9LB6kRDtcAACxa.nDA3EK6mdTm2KqrYgA0usmVbz
dLanSwOtOMdhyWbQ3F0F7PzFT6ZyZHVIDCZSPeiUpoMAQcpMCRT1jq0htS55
MAQAqrrZE38w9UsmXXcp32JU1P3ICiKYTkhjPuwC6OIt2R1iPKqE7G8gbv3v
VUkwUQPSX.+mRPvirfzxc.IDMcZBRPfJfBF7EjX+oQRTzT2QLwAeuvjnh2Pe
X.2KhV28kIyGpzjxNPWX3gcUkV3.QdhyMLciWf1RYIl2Jst+h2JA1ayTZorj
NzOj+oBOZ7f5Q0FnSurrmHMzSSkOS4jMoz5a31.Nix9RpfXe6obMJxAZ7yDs
VxLOsPO+OUoNWJzVkLMmJdoZ3pwqCgTAOoC09h0lyYZk9sBDupgEjYbs.aPU
wPWLcEsPMLmZmPpaDHEqEBqp9YbR+3BM0n2MFWELjDvNphEWD+TTfb3fx.88
FWpy3iW4pA2qbUfwgQCf2q6SwpMUyJXCSjD+5ufB.oc7K0MkHWts5rKsr6Yj
FSUZF+TF9imqkt1h1whio75wBwLkMGG3ieiNvOBbP2ANlfj5K5eMbv8AN3IA
Nfi3dxis59IxacUfQy3AOctqqndK9q0Sl9X+5j6qOgSFdtxTc3ulH7f+OCO8
weglN7f5y0gASLdtq+BOc3o246C49mh2VI62efJUkmI.ES0GuJj1tQygtLdQ
WnrBOI8.qZ8fM7HRSACZS0B4xhRMNtJxTniwN+Y1e0OPZ6E
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

add this device in each chain, changing the only filtered note. Then detune your instruments per note. Yay, i'll have some fun with it !
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

jaakked
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by jaakked » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:26 pm

chapelier fou wrote:This seem to work :

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
797.3ocyWssiaBCD8YxWABo9VZD1PXS5as+FaWsxI3k3UfcjsIMaW0+8ZO.I
jDfvxRQ8Em3qy4blYrGdeli2FwQpxy8atO55379LGGXH6.Nk8c7xHG2lRTvx
71Jxxnbs27h4zziZX7Tp1UuSJxS18Sd0r77LF2LCrUT4fuH3ZNIiBa66RFI0
8Ghz3p8rWRUFCPzLA+YIcqt.cHzB+4tgPazRaKZ0Be2mNaIQttxT9UlRlrA5
unZj8D81cLdR8SNzGNtH3nCu4ns3Uw9MfWTsSpFNqSOVLPLwlW+Z3Cd1w9yr
Y1l48Tg4zeY17MBr1k4x9LB6kRDtcAACxa.nDA3EK6mdTm2KqrYgA0usmVbz
dLanSwOtOMdhyWbQ3F0F7PzFT6ZyZHVIDCZSPeiUpoMAQcpMCRT1jq0htS55
MAQAqrrZE38w9UsmXXcp32JU1P3ICiKYTkhjPuwC6OIt2R1iPKqE7G8gbv3v
VUkwUQPSX.+mRPvirfzxc.IDMcZBRPfJfBF7EjX+oQRTzT2QLwAeuvjnh2Pe
X.2KhV28kIyGpzjxNPWX3gcUkV3.QdhyMLciWf1RYIl2Jst+h2JA1ayTZorj
NzOj+oBOZ7f5Q0FnSurrmHMzSSkOS4jMoz5a31.Nix9RpfXe6obMJxAZ7yDs
VxLOsPO+OUoNWJzVkLMmJdoZ3pwqCgTAOoC09h0lyYZk9sBDupgEjYbs.aPU
wPWLcEsPMLmZmPpaDHEqEBqp9YbR+3BM0n2MFWELjDvNphEWD+TTfb3fx.88
FWpy3iW4pA2qbUfwgQCf2q6SwpMUyJXCSjD+5ufB.oc7K0MkHWts5rKsr6Yj
FSUZF+TF9imqkt1h1whio75wBwLkMGG3ieiNvOBbP2ANlfj5K5eMbv8AN3IA
Nfi3dxis59IxacUfQy3AOctqqndK9q0Sl9X+5j6qOgSFdtxTc3ulH7f+OCO8
weglN7f5y0gASLdtq+BOc3o246C49mh2VI62efJUkmI.ES0GuJj1tQygtLdQ
WnrBOI8.qZ8fM7HRSACZS0B4xhRMNtJxTniwN+Y1e0OPZ6E
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

add this device in each chain, changing the only filtered note. Then detune your instruments per note. Yay, i'll have some fun with it !
Thanks for posting,I'll take a look.

I will say I started this thread in an effort(albeit a weak effort) to express my feeling that at this point in the development of civilization we shouldn't need workarounds to work with microtonally with supposedly "state of the art" applications like Live.It should be part and parcel.

(I just thought I'd say this before this thread goes away into the void.....)

SpeedKing
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:51 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by SpeedKing » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:35 pm

jaakked wrote: I will say I started this thread in an effort(albeit a weak effort) to express my feeling that at this point in the development of civilization we shouldn't need workarounds to work with microtonally with supposedly "state of the art" applications like Live.It should be part and parcel.

(I just thought I'd say this before this thread goes away into the void.....)
I hear you. I remember thinking the same type of stuff back when I first learned of microtones. However, I the the biggest thing standing in the way of any forwarding of the ease of use, or really any technology devoted to it is because there just hasn't been much great sounding stuff using microtones for terribly much more than novelty. At least from what I remember.

I'd love to hear some good stuff that makes use of microtones though if you have any suggestions of where to start?

Now, the argument of MIDI pitches being too 'true' while real instrument tones or voices are sharp or flat usually by a tiny amount, that is a whole other very legit argument. I'd love to have options like there is to set velocity to "humanize" that you can do the same thing with MIDI pitch, and you set a range of microtones to 'humanize' a MIDI violin, so to speak. Though...something out there might already exist.

chapelier fou
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Anyway i just made the most funny instrument rack ever thanks to this little m4l filter !
Nothing to do with microtonality but i just found a new range of craziness ! thanks for this !! :)
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

jaakked
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by jaakked » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:08 pm

SpeedKing wrote:
jaakked wrote: I will say I started this thread in an effort(albeit a weak effort) to express my feeling that at this point in the development of civilization we shouldn't need workarounds to work with microtonally with supposedly "state of the art" applications like Live.It should be part and parcel.

(I just thought I'd say this before this thread goes away into the void.....)
I hear you. I remember thinking the same type of stuff back when I first learned of microtones. However, I the the biggest thing standing in the way of any forwarding of the ease of use, or really any technology devoted to it is because there just hasn't been much great sounding stuff using microtones for terribly much more than novelty. At least from what I remember.

I'd love to hear some good stuff that makes use of microtones though if you have any suggestions of where to start?


Now, the argument of MIDI pitches being too 'true' while real instrument tones or voices are sharp or flat usually by a tiny amount, that is a whole other very legit argument. I'd love to have options like there is to set velocity to "humanize" that you can do the same thing with MIDI pitch, and you set a range of microtones to 'humanize' a MIDI violin, so to speak. Though...something out there might already exist.
As to "where to start" most of what I listen to in this area is in the contemporary classical world.
Check out Xenakis, Gerard Grisey or George Frederich Haas for example.
Most traditional Asian music in based on other tunings. Much amazing stuff there.
Wendy Carlos "Beauty in the Beast" album is my favorite outside of these other categories.

Need yourself an extremely open mind for this stuff though 8O

jaakked
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by jaakked » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:11 pm

Also "great sounding stuff" is pure opinion...

chapelier fou
Posts: 5353
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by chapelier fou » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:43 am

Aphex twin (and the tuss) is a good place to start, and harpsichord music, for non equal 12T music.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

jaakked
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Re: mIcrotonal support in LIve

Post by jaakked » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:33 am

chapelier fou wrote:Aphex twin (and the tuss) is a good place to start, and harpsichord music, for non equal 12T music.
Good calls on both. Perhaps more accessible than my choices.
You should be more specific though because a good deal of recorded(and live) harpsichord music is
in 12 TET as well as a good deal of Aphex Twin.

Post Reply