mIcrotonal support in LIve

[jaakked]

Hello!

I've been a long time Electronic Musician and recently I've tried to become more involved with the community of live users(somewhat at least).

My main issue is that Ableton seems to have NO REGARD AT ALL for any tuning possibilities outside 12 tone equal temperament. Live 9 tries to throw in the kitchen sink in most areas BUT not here(not to mention tuplet implementation outside of "stretching" MIDI data).

Believe it or not most music throughout history did not use 12 TET. Much today still doesn't. I know some folks that got involved in electronic music for this reason alone. Many "old" guys I know don't take Ableton seriously because of this.Is Live not designed to push boundaries? I remember in 1994 when I got a Kurzweil K2000 with microtonal support and I thought "finally the wave of the future is now".Most other DAWS have SOME kind of microtonal support(albeit limited).Why has Ableton completely ignored this?

Perhaps worse yet in this regard,many younger Live users aren't even aware of the possibility because they are learning electronic music through Live.

Through Max/MSP,Scala,LMSO and some VST's I am able to continue my microtonal work but it would be so nice to this issue addressed directly in Live.

Am I alone here?

[chapelier fou]

Through Max/MSP,Scala,LMSO and some VST's I am able to continue my microtonal work

Would you mind explaining your workarounds ?

[su]

What about Live's scale midi effect?

[edit]

bah, just checked and scale is constrained to semitones

[ikeaboy]

Interesting as I was only just reading about the "lock in" effect midi has on musical notes in 'You are not a Gadget' by Jason Lanier. Here's a quote from a review.

Lanier cites the longevity and pervasiveness of MIDI as an example of a kind of technological “lock-in” which makes it quite hard for us to imagine other, better alternatives that may be possible. Lanier reminds us that once upon a time, before the advent of MIDI, a musical note was a limitless field of possibility; in fact, when a musician plays an instrument or sings, no two notes are ever the same. But MIDI reduced music and we bowed before this new limitation, using “crappy tools” to make music that in many ways was (and still is) much more limited than old-fashioned acoustic music.

Not really about tuning as opposed to performance and expression but theres a lot of common ground looking at the source of the limitations

[jaakked]

Through Max/MSP,Scala,LMSO and some VST's I am able to continue my microtonal work

Would you mind explaining your workarounds ?

These days for quick easy stuff I've been using 3rd party stuff.Mostly Madrona labs Aalto and U-he plugs.Both allow me to easily import tuning files.

When ambitious I write little apps in Max/MSP and use Soundflower(I think is Mac only but not sure) to port the audio.I've yet to try porting anything to Max for Live.I'm a bit hesitant because in Max it took me a LONG time to do things parsing frequencies and I haven't wrapped my head around how to get these things into a MIDI approach.

I REALLY want an easy way to import tuning files into Operator and Sampler.The best(and far from optimal)I've been able to come up with is use an app. called Lil Miss Scale Oven which can retune these using MIDI pitch bend messages.They appear to only work monophonically this way which has become too much a pain in the ass for me.I do use Lil Miss scale oven(and you can also use Scala) to create my tuning files which I then use in the U-he etc. plugs. Ideally I would like to see some solution for Operator and Sampler that somehow "transcends" MIDI somehow.No idea how though,I'm not that smart .Lots of smart folks ay ableton though .

[chapelier fou]

Thanks, i'll have a look !
Couldn't manage to have any luck with midi and max neither.
One thing i once tried is (if i remember well):
Make a rack.
Load your preset 12 times, one per note.
Adjust zones
map the detune for each chain.

can't remember if it worked, though. Maybe there is something to dig in there.

[chapelier fou]

Well, it would work if we were allowed to put different note zones within a single chain...
A m4l note filter could do the job, maybe...

[chapelier fou]

This seem to work :

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</code></pre>

add this device in each chain, changing the only filtered note. Then detune your instruments per note. Yay, i'll have some fun with it !

[jaakked]

This seem to work :

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
797.3ocyWssiaBCD8YxWABo9VZD1PXS5as+FaWsxI3k3UfcjsIMaW0+8ZO.I
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

add this device in each chain, changing the only filtered note. Then detune your instruments per note. Yay, i'll have some fun with it !

Thanks for posting,I'll take a look.

I will say I started this thread in an effort(albeit a weak effort) to express my feeling that at this point in the development of civilization we shouldn't need workarounds to work with microtonally with supposedly "state of the art" applications like Live.It should be part and parcel.

(I just thought I'd say this before this thread goes away into the void.....)

[SpeedKing]

I will say I started this thread in an effort(albeit a weak effort) to express my feeling that at this point in the development of civilization we shouldn't need workarounds to work with microtonally with supposedly "state of the art" applications like Live.It should be part and parcel.

(I just thought I'd say this before this thread goes away into the void.....)

I hear you. I remember thinking the same type of stuff back when I first learned of microtones. However, I the the biggest thing standing in the way of any forwarding of the ease of use, or really any technology devoted to it is because there just hasn't been much great sounding stuff using microtones for terribly much more than novelty. At least from what I remember.

I'd love to hear some good stuff that makes use of microtones though if you have any suggestions of where to start?

Now, the argument of MIDI pitches being too 'true' while real instrument tones or voices are sharp or flat usually by a tiny amount, that is a whole other very legit argument. I'd love to have options like there is to set velocity to "humanize" that you can do the same thing with MIDI pitch, and you set a range of microtones to 'humanize' a MIDI violin, so to speak. Though...something out there might already exist.

[chapelier fou]

Anyway i just made the most funny instrument rack ever thanks to this little m4l filter !
Nothing to do with microtonality but i just found a new range of craziness ! thanks for this !!

[jaakked]

I will say I started this thread in an effort(albeit a weak effort) to express my feeling that at this point in the development of civilization we shouldn't need workarounds to work with microtonally with supposedly "state of the art" applications like Live.It should be part and parcel.

(I just thought I'd say this before this thread goes away into the void.....)

I hear you. I remember thinking the same type of stuff back when I first learned of microtones. However, I the the biggest thing standing in the way of any forwarding of the ease of use, or really any technology devoted to it is because there just hasn't been much great sounding stuff using microtones for terribly much more than novelty. At least from what I remember.

I'd love to hear some good stuff that makes use of microtones though if you have any suggestions of where to start?


Now, the argument of MIDI pitches being too 'true' while real instrument tones or voices are sharp or flat usually by a tiny amount, that is a whole other very legit argument. I'd love to have options like there is to set velocity to "humanize" that you can do the same thing with MIDI pitch, and you set a range of microtones to 'humanize' a MIDI violin, so to speak. Though...something out there might already exist.

As to "where to start" most of what I listen to in this area is in the contemporary classical world.
Check out Xenakis, Gerard Grisey or George Frederich Haas for example.
Most traditional Asian music in based on other tunings. Much amazing stuff there.
Wendy Carlos "Beauty in the Beast" album is my favorite outside of these other categories.

Need yourself an extremely open mind for this stuff though

[jaakked]

Also "great sounding stuff" is pure opinion...

[chapelier fou]

Aphex twin (and the tuss) is a good place to start, and harpsichord music, for non equal 12T music.

[jaakked]

Aphex twin (and the tuss) is a good place to start, and harpsichord music, for non equal 12T music.

Good calls on both. Perhaps more accessible than my choices.
You should be more specific though because a good deal of recorded(and live) harpsichord music is
in 12 TET as well as a good deal of Aphex Twin.