Operator Vs Analog

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Quinnx
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:09 am

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by Quinnx » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:11 pm

The statement the way you made it could have made a newcomer think using single cycle waveforms in samplers to make a decent makeshift wavetable synth is not possible. (They don't represent the whole scale correctly)
Dont think so since in a previous posts I stated that I agreed single cycle where fine for general synthesis after someone stated that single cycle waveforms should not suffer the same faith as full waveforms hence the experiment and result published.

Once again i say as a basis for making new sounds they appear to work okay on hi freq
but if you go the other way you loose depth of sound so my conclusion thus far is if you intend to produce sounds that a low freq based the original single cycle would have to be of that nature to begin with..
Thats not to say you wont get low freq at all just it wont be as intense or have the bite you might expect and that just my experience.

TomViolenz
Posts: 6854
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:23 pm

Quinnx wrote:
The statement the way you made it could have made a newcomer think using single cycle waveforms in samplers to make a decent makeshift wavetable synth is not possible. (They don't represent the whole scale correctly)
Dont think so since in a previous posts I stated that I agreed single cycle where fine for general synthesis after someone stated that single cycle waveforms should not suffer the same faith as full waveforms hence the experiment and result published.

Once again i say as a basis for making new sounds they appear to work okay on hi freq
but if you go the other way you loose depth of sound so my conclusion thus far is if you intend to produce sounds that a low freq based the original single cycle would have to be of that nature to begin with..
Thats not to say you wont get low freq at all just it wont be as intense or have the bite you might expect and that just my experience.
But that is wrong. All of it.
It's like saying a sine or sawtooth wave can only make sounds in a certain frequency range. It doesn't make sense.

Quinnx
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:09 am

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by Quinnx » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:40 pm

But that is wrong. All of it
well then there must be something wrong with my hearing
because the side by side experiment showed that the sample (single cycle)
broke down when moving from its original freq toward the lower one.

Now as i mentioned about making sure the original starts as a low freq partial rather than a random cycle.
if you think about it, that would make better sense since as you go up the scale you get compressed frequencies which means there is more unlike coming from a hi freq cycle sample down
the sample looses content and resolution is reduced.

TomViolenz
Posts: 6854
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Quinnx wrote:
But that is wrong. All of it
well then there must be something wrong with my hearing
because the side by side experiment showed that the sample (single cycle)
broke down when moving from its original freq toward the lower one.

Now as i mentioned about making sure the original starts as a low freq partial rather than a random cycle.
if you think about it, that would make better sense since as you go up the scale you get compressed frequencies which means there is more unlike coming from a hi freq cycle sample down
the sample looses content and resolution is reduced.
The explanation I gave involving the cut guitare string analogy sounds most likely to be the culprit here. IOW I think you didn't have the whole single cycle.

Do yourself a favor and download the demo waveforms from the site I linked above (take the 32bit versions, just to be sure) and just load one of them into Samplers sample tab and repeat your experiment.
You will see that it absolutely plays the full scale without any issues.

NoSonic822
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:38 am

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by NoSonic822 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:28 am

....analog has two filters...and you can route 2 osc into one filter...and route that signal into the second filter....you cant do that in operator....thats the main difference with analog.you can have LPF on filter oneand then route that signal into a Notch filter in filter 2, this is a sound you can only get with analog.
Quinnx wrote:Again.. Im well versed on what a single cycle waveform is..
Operator exports as ams file which sampler can read
take it as read that all rules have been applied and your first assumption
that i did no get the full cycle was incorrect.
yea, but operator on ly has one filter.........there are some really warm sounds you can get with analog....and the filter envelops on analog get you a very lush sound if you know how to prgoram it...operator cant do that...it just cant
You have to think outside the box here..
although operator gives you 4 OSC you gota think of all 4 of them as a single OSC or pair with one filter rather than a complete synth.
create a chain like so..


Osc1=Operator1>Filter|
.............................{===MFX====Output>
Osc2=Operator2>Filter|


This is your real synth

oddstep
Posts: 1732
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:47 pm
Location: Plymouth the great

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by oddstep » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:57 pm

Would sampling rate have an impact on a single cycle loop if you pitched it down? If a short wav is pitched down enough would I encounter artifacts derived from the fact that I have only captured audio information for a single cycle @ approx 261 hertz then taken the the rate of playback down to say 55 hertz? would the 44.1 khertz sampling rate (for the initial wav) be sufficiently high to still be transparent?

TomViolenz
Posts: 6854
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Operator Vs Analog

Post by TomViolenz » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:18 pm

oddstep wrote:Would sampling rate have an impact on a single cycle loop if you pitched it down? If a short wav is pitched down enough would I encounter artifacts derived from the fact that I have only captured audio information for a single cycle @ approx 261 hertz then taken the the rate of playback down to say 55 hertz? would the 44.1 khertz sampling rate (for the initial wav) be sufficiently high to still be transparent?
In a sampler? Yes.

In a synth with a poper synth engine? Not really.

The Galbanum site has this to say about the matter:
The Sample Rate header is set at 96K, however sample-rate is generally irrelevant in proper wavetable synths such as Rapture which transpose, resample, and perfectly anti-alias the single-cycle waveform using industry leading synthesis engines to provide perfectly clean oscillators over the entire musical pitch range.

Post Reply