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 Post subject: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:17 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
I'm trying to run ableton as a slave for an rc505 loop station. Ableton is following the midi clock alright, it may go off a bit but its just needed to run some synth sounds (omnisphere and another drum vst). The problem is, as soon as I hit the ext button for external syncing, the synth is gated or something, it turns the sound into a sort of staccato hit. Arpeggios don't work either. I tried it with abletons sampler as well and it has the same problem so it's not a vst issue. Has anyone had these problems or if you have any insight on the issue I would love to hear it.


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:06 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
theinfinate wrote:
I'm trying to run ableton as a slave

You're trying to run Live as a slave.

theinfinate wrote:
Ableton is following the midi clock alright

Live is following the MIDI clock.

theinfinate wrote:
I tried it with abletons sampler

You tried it with Live's sampler.

The software is called Live. The company is called Ableton.

This has been a Public Service Announcement ©102455


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:26 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
102455 wrote:
theinfinate wrote:
I'm trying to run ableton as a slave

You're trying to run Live as a slave.

theinfinate wrote:
Ableton is following the midi clock alright

Live is following the MIDI clock.

theinfinate wrote:
I tried it with abletons sampler

You tried it with Live's sampler.

The software is called Live. The company is called Ableton.

This has been a Public Service Announcement ©102455


I'm really glad you swooped in on this thread mate, no one would have known what I was talking about if it wasn't for your correction!


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:56 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
theinfinate wrote:
no one would have known what I was talking about if it wasn't for your correction!

No problem. Glad to help!

It's common on forums like this for people to want help with something, and yet they barely give any relevant info in their posts.

Along the lines of: "Doctor, I'm sick. What's wrong?" or "My car is broken. Can you fix it?". :lol:



For starters - what version of Live are you running? Mac or PC? 32 bit or 64 bit? What tempo are you trying to sync at?

What type of "synth sounds" are you trying to use? Presumably long ones, if they're being shortened.


External MIDI sync is a well known weak point with Live, and has been for some time. The more detail you give, the more chance there is of someone else here reproducing the issue. The more people that report issues like this to Ableton, the more chance there is of them being fixed.

...although the external sync thing has been around for a long time. :(


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:24 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
Ableton live 9.04 on a MacBook pro with a boss rc505 loop station connected via USB (it's an audio midi interface aswell) I record a loop which sets the tempo so the tempo is different every time. The rc505 will send the midi clock signal to Live (I now realize the problems with Live's ext syncing) its pretty much unusable for receiving song start midi info perfectly on time but that is another issue.

I'm using heaps of sounds ranging from bass to long arp synths. I noticed that the sound improves when I hit play but still not as good as when I turn off ext tempo sync. Then when I hit stop, the note is squashed into a pluck sound for all instruments except drums.

I've pretty much given up on Live in my loop setup as it seems like the midi ext syncing tempo problem won't be fixed in a hurry


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:53 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 70
Location: South Coast. UK.
theinfinate wrote:
I've pretty much given up on Live in my loop setup as it seems like the midi ext syncing tempo problem won't be fixed in a hurry


What about getting a midi interface, using Live as master, and connecting with good old midi cable to the RC505 (set to slave)?

Having said that, I know Lives midi clock is pants.

I invested in an SND Acme-4 and now I live in a world of full clock control....expensive but if you want your external sequencers (or samplers / loopers) in time (with themselves and Live) and not a "little bit late" or a "little bit early" or jittery as a jittery midi clock form Live, then essential.
:)


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:16 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
dixie237 wrote:
theinfinate wrote:
I've pretty much given up on Live in my loop setup as it seems like the midi ext syncing tempo problem won't be fixed in a hurry


What about getting a midi interface, using Live as master, and connecting with good old midi cable to the RC505 (set to slave)?
:)


Yeah I tried that but didn't like it for a couple of reasons. I like to set the tempo by the recorded length of the first loop, so il beatbox a couple of bars and that will determine the tempo. I tried setting up a looper in Live to do the same thing and send the tempo to the rc505 but there is a small delay with Lives song start midi message that was really annoying me. That acme-4 midi thing sounds like it would fix that problem but yeah wow it's pretty pricey!

It's a funny thing I noticed with the midi ext problems with Live. I tried using an app on my ipad (loopy Hd) to run as a slave to the rc-505 connected via wifi network session midi. It works fine and seems to be tight and on time! I couldnt use it but for the audio interface (roland duo capture) had to much noticable audio latency.
Weird thing that, loopy is around $10 and Live is as you know a lot more. Why haven't Ableton figured it out yet?


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:44 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 70
Location: South Coast. UK.
I use a roland duo capture also to get my audio out of my iPad, and connect midi to use Lemur. I've never had major noticable latency that would make it unusable.
Any reason why your not using a cable to the Duo ex rather than wifi?
I guess if your rc505 needs to be master then your options are limited.

Yeah, midi clock....it's a challenge.

Good luck


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:43 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
I think I said that because I tried a setup that was going through 2 audio interfaces, the rc505 and then into the duo capture for using loopy.
I sorted it out now, well very close to finishing my setup anyway. For anyone who is reading this and has run into similar problems, this is what I have done for my setup.

I now use Live as a master for the rc505 running as slave to midi clock. The rc505 actually works pretty good now for receiving song start and stop midi signals. I've got it to perform pretty tight.
I use a USB pedal that sends keystrokes so I've got access to spacebar, undo and enter for when I want to capture my guitar easily. (Undo is a great function to have when I stuff up!). Another foot switch plugged into the rc505 also gives me foot control for capturing clips on there. I also use 1 ipad connected wifi with the touchable app (which is awesome btw) for getting my dj skills on with loops I've made myself on the fly or I can pull up a set of some cool prerecorded loops. I use another ipad connected wifi for receiving midi clock to run apps like animoog, thumjam, drumjam, Magellan, Tc-11, samplewiz, geosynth, ipoly6 and sunrizer (yep I got em all, I have an appdiction!) which I just plug straight into aux into the rc505 for added sounds. I'd love to have turnado somewhere in the mix maybe with audiobus but il probably just wait for beardytron5000 to come out which it seems is based around the turnado effects. I have to have this software when it comes out, hurry up beardyman!

I've got 3 tracks setup in Live for capturing line out from the rc505 which works great so you can use the faders etc on the rc505 and capture that as a clip in ableton. Oh yeah I have a track in Live setup as rc505 in which routes to those other 3 tracks, then a looper is one the rc505 in track so I can do a beatbox and capture that which then sets the tempo.
Everything just seems to work now, finally! Now I just have to get use to it and ion out any flaws as having such a complex setup can lead to embarrassment on stage, that of which I can say I have been there and done that, it's not a cool feeling at all.

I'm now just finalising my setup by adding a fcb1010 midi floor pedal plugged into the rc505's midi in so I can have control over filters and whatever I can think of really! I am having trouble with this but as I like to use bomes midi translator to convert to key strokes and chains of commands but when I try to capture midi, the rc505 is sending F8 like 10 times per second so that's what I'm trying to get my head around now. I'm so close to having the ultimate loop setup, this of which has been my obsession for the last few years!

I hope this can help someone if they are after a mad live looping setup.


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:32 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 70
Location: South Coast. UK.
Glad you are getting on with your setup which sounds very cool. Nice one, seems nicely set up for Studio and Live work and thanks for posting your solution. Live as master clock I think is the best route.

My setup is not dissimilar to yours. I'm working towards some live stuff this year and have always been keen to play my studio work out.

When the RC-505's came out I saw the opportunity also. I was thinking about an OctaTrack but really dont want to mangle loops live, the RC's effects and simplicty appeals.
I'm planning on loading the RC's (I have 2 and will work with my mate as a duo) with 16 bar loops that make up my tracks. Along side this we'll have an EMX-1 for drums running through a Korg Kaoss Quad. Along side this will be the iPad, (run through the Duo ex) and an Elektron A4 both for improv noodlings.
All of the clock feeds come from the Acme-4, so its all in sync, no computer! The Acme allows very cool swing and half/double time tempo variations on the fly. Very powerful central unit.

All this running into a Mackie 1402 VLZ3.

Final item in the setup is an RMX1000 which is setup on the mackie on the alt 3/4 bus. This become active on the mute button on the mixer, so to send any channel to the RMX (which is fed back into the mixer on its own channel) I just need to hit mute on the mackie. Works well. A bit of tape over the mute button on the RMX input channel prevents accidental feedback send!!!!

Good luck with your musical journey my friend... :)


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:36 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:31 am
Posts: 528
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sync Gen Pro II is the solution I settled on ... bye bye clocking problems for all my hardware!
http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... ducts.html

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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:26 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
Wow Dixie, your setup sounds great! Inspireing :) Two rc's was definitely entering my mind. Yeah your starting to sell me on the acme midi clock master thing, and thanks jasefos, I will check out the sync gen as well. When I get some more cash that is.


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
dixie237 wrote:

Final item in the setup is an RMX1000 which is setup on the mackie on the alt 3/4 bus.


wow this gadget looks super cool! Looks great for live and studio usage, I may have to save me pennies for something like this too, thanx man for the description of your setup ;)


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 70
Location: South Coast. UK.
theinfinate wrote:
Wow Dixie, your setup sounds great! Inspireing :) Two rc's was definitely entering my mind. Yeah your starting to sell me on the acme midi clock master thing, and thanks jasefos, I will check out the sync gen as well. When I get some more cash that is.


Sync-gen are good units, but you will also need the sync-shift to get the same functionality of the Acme-4.

What ive found is with all of my external kit running from the Acme-4, individually they all need a slight "push" or "pull" to get the timing bang on. These are just limitations for the external kit. Once set on the Acme it stays locked in.

:)


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 Post subject: Re: External midi sync problem with synth
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:07 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 122
Ok cool cheers man, hey that rmx1000 gadget is really looking like it would fit great into my setup, I'm glad u mentioned it! Do you rate it pretty highly? I'm staring at one on eBay now, I can hear it scream buy me buy me!


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