Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Citizen
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am

Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by Citizen » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:54 am

What is the best method for layering drums in Live? 8)

Most drum processing tutorials I've watched (Vespers, among others) emphasise the usage of the Drum Racks for everything. HOWEVER, I recently read several articles and tutorials by Eddie Bazil, such as this one:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov12/a ... rclass.htm

... and his main point in all his writing on drum layering, is the fundamental importance of phase alignment between the different layers of your drum hit. :!: He demonstrates this by simply shifting each layer a few samples to the left and right, and because of the way the samples align (and cancellation), you can actually get quite a wide array of sounds with this alone - even before you start to adjust the ADSR envelope of each layer, to make them sit well together.

As I understand it, in Drum Racks, your Sampler only allows you to move the Start point forward - ie. adjusting three layers of a layered drum sound relative to one another is impossible within the Drum Racks paradigm - you can't shift them.

So - what is the BEST method for layering drums in Live?
:?:

Does one simply have to create three seperate audio tracks, and experiment with the relative positions of the samples that way, before bouncing down into a single Audio sample? (which could then be imported into a Drum Rack - but obviously, is not easily editable) :roll:

Any help here would be greatly appreciated. I have been keen to get into layering for sometime, but the complexity of the subject, and extra work involved is a put-off. Is there a better way?

drez
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by drez » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:00 pm

Couldn't you, per pad in a drum rack, just create multiple chains to layer those sounds however you'd like?
http://www.twitter.com/dreznicek
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

Citizen
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by Citizen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:27 am

I think I know what you mean - but I don' think that enables you to adjust the position of each sample relative to the others - only can adjust the start point of each sample.

Am I wrong?

drez
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by drez » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:16 am

Citizen wrote:I think I know what you mean - but I don' think that enables you to adjust the position of each sample relative to the others - only can adjust the start point of each sample.

Am I wrong?
I guess I don't know what the difference between "position" and "start point" is. I thought you were refer g to the position AS the start point?
http://www.twitter.com/dreznicek
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

Citizen
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by Citizen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:46 am

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

In Eddie Bazil's article, he stresses the importance of shifting the position of each layer relative to one another, like this:

Image


As far as I'm aware, the same effect can not be done within chains of a Drum Rack - or is that not the case?

Citizen
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by Citizen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:56 am

Sorry for the HUGE pic 8O

(but it does illustrate the point very well!)

drez
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by drez » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:09 am

Ahhh, yes I understand (the pic was most helpful :D )

The only way I know of to do that would be to drop the sample into the Arrangement view, drop a "silence" audio clip in front of it, combine them, drop that clip into simpler, and then change your start location. I'm sure some other person smarter than I might have a better way to do it.
http://www.twitter.com/dreznicek
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

mothergarage
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:41 am
Contact:

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by mothergarage » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:26 am

Well you could either shift the midi notes or use the drumhits in an audiotrack in arrangement view. Like in this video.
home | sound | twitter | m4l
Windows 10 64bit - Live 10.0.1 - M4L 8 - RME Babyface/iConnectAUDIO4+

Citizen
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by Citizen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:34 am

Thanks Drez - thats kinda what I thought. Seems like a pretty lengthy workflow, though:

• use arrangement view to layer samples over 3-4 channels
• adjust ADSR envelopes, listen for desired effect
• adjust pitches of each sample
• possibly compress or process as whole
• resample to a single audio sample
• save resulting new sample into custom library for future use
• place into Drum Rack and test within context of track

:roll:

If anyone can clear up if it is possible to do this sort of stuff within a Drum Rack - ie. with 128s, or like Vespers' 'Devastator' Drum Rack, it would be most appreciated.

thecld
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by thecld » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:01 am

You could just use Simple Delay (100% Wet, 0% Feedback, Time mode, with Link unless you want to get additional stereo effect) and adjust delay time to get results like in pic that you've posted earlier. I do this a lot when I'm stacking samples in Drum Racks on single pad. Hope that it'll help you, cheers! :)
Image

Citizen
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by Citizen » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:52 am

Oh shit - I hadn't thought of that! 8O

So by having it 100% wet, it just works as a nudge function then really? Is that it?

drez
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by drez » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:53 pm

chmurok wrote:You could just use Simple Delay (100% Wet, 0% Feedback, Time mode, with Link unless you want to get additional stereo effect) and adjust delay time to get results like in pic that you've posted earlier. I do this a lot when I'm stacking samples in Drum Racks on single pad. Hope that it'll help you, cheers! :)
Holy smoke, chmurok. That's a very nice hack indeed! Thanks for sharing :D
http://www.twitter.com/dreznicek
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

H20nly
Posts: 15836
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by H20nly » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:14 pm

nice.

*bookmark*

naujpablo
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:28 am

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by naujpablo » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:49 am

we need a plugin with an explicit user interface, just like the picture above, but closed in a cell that we can trigger like a sample. maybe an update to native instruments battery cells, so we can layer drums.

i just put one on top of another... one for the transient, another for the release, or whatever i need, and make them match. i have a few combinations that get along well... but thats less than an ideal approach.

btw, nice trick with the delay there, ill try it.

kevwestbeats
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?

Post by kevwestbeats » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:31 am

Imo the best way to go about doing drums in Live is not using the Live devices. Battery imo is a much better tool for drums than drum racks. I also love the Maschine. To me Maschine + Reason + Ableton is a dream workstation.
http://www.KevWestBeats.com
http://www.YouTube.com/DjKevWest
http://www.Facebook.com/KevWestbeats
http://www.Twitter.com/KevWestBeats

Live 9, Komplete 9, Maschine MK2, IK Total Studio, XLN Audio Addictive Keys and Addictive Drums, All of FXpansion's fx.

Post Reply