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 Post subject: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:54 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am
Posts: 468
What is the best method for layering drums in Live? 8)

Most drum processing tutorials I've watched (Vespers, among others) emphasise the usage of the Drum Racks for everything. HOWEVER, I recently read several articles and tutorials by Eddie Bazil, such as this one:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov12/a ... rclass.htm

... and his main point in all his writing on drum layering, is the fundamental importance of phase alignment between the different layers of your drum hit. :!: He demonstrates this by simply shifting each layer a few samples to the left and right, and because of the way the samples align (and cancellation), you can actually get quite a wide array of sounds with this alone - even before you start to adjust the ADSR envelope of each layer, to make them sit well together.

As I understand it, in Drum Racks, your Sampler only allows you to move the Start point forward - ie. adjusting three layers of a layered drum sound relative to one another is impossible within the Drum Racks paradigm - you can't shift them.

So - what is the BEST method for layering drums in Live?
:?:

Does one simply have to create three seperate audio tracks, and experiment with the relative positions of the samples that way, before bouncing down into a single Audio sample? (which could then be imported into a Drum Rack - but obviously, is not easily editable) :roll:

Any help here would be greatly appreciated. I have been keen to get into layering for sometime, but the complexity of the subject, and extra work involved is a put-off. Is there a better way?


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
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Location: Dallas, TX
Couldn't you, per pad in a drum rack, just create multiple chains to layer those sounds however you'd like?

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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:27 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am
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I think I know what you mean - but I don' think that enables you to adjust the position of each sample relative to the others - only can adjust the start point of each sample.

Am I wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:16 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
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Location: Dallas, TX
Citizen wrote:
I think I know what you mean - but I don' think that enables you to adjust the position of each sample relative to the others - only can adjust the start point of each sample.

Am I wrong?


I guess I don't know what the difference between "position" and "start point" is. I thought you were refer g to the position AS the start point?

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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:46 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am
Posts: 468
Sorry, I should have been clearer.

In Eddie Bazil's article, he stresses the importance of shifting the position of each layer relative to one another, like this:

Image


As far as I'm aware, the same effect can not be done within chains of a Drum Rack - or is that not the case?


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:56 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am
Posts: 468
Sorry for the HUGE pic 8O

(but it does illustrate the point very well!)


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:09 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
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Location: Dallas, TX
Ahhh, yes I understand (the pic was most helpful :D )

The only way I know of to do that would be to drop the sample into the Arrangement view, drop a "silence" audio clip in front of it, combine them, drop that clip into simpler, and then change your start location. I'm sure some other person smarter than I might have a better way to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:26 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:41 am
Posts: 259
Well you could either shift the midi notes or use the drumhits in an audiotrack in arrangement view. Like in this video.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:34 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am
Posts: 468
Thanks Drez - thats kinda what I thought. Seems like a pretty lengthy workflow, though:

• use arrangement view to layer samples over 3-4 channels
• adjust ADSR envelopes, listen for desired effect
• adjust pitches of each sample
• possibly compress or process as whole
• resample to a single audio sample
• save resulting new sample into custom library for future use
• place into Drum Rack and test within context of track

:roll:

If anyone can clear up if it is possible to do this sort of stuff within a Drum Rack - ie. with 128s, or like Vespers' 'Devastator' Drum Rack, it would be most appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:01 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:49 pm
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Location: Poland
You could just use Simple Delay (100% Wet, 0% Feedback, Time mode, with Link unless you want to get additional stereo effect) and adjust delay time to get results like in pic that you've posted earlier. I do this a lot when I'm stacking samples in Drum Racks on single pad. Hope that it'll help you, cheers! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:52 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:34 am
Posts: 468
Oh shit - I hadn't thought of that! 8O

So by having it 100% wet, it just works as a nudge function then really? Is that it?


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:53 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Posts: 453
Location: Dallas, TX
chmurok wrote:
You could just use Simple Delay (100% Wet, 0% Feedback, Time mode, with Link unless you want to get additional stereo effect) and adjust delay time to get results like in pic that you've posted earlier. I do this a lot when I'm stacking samples in Drum Racks on single pad. Hope that it'll help you, cheers! :)


Holy smoke, chmurok. That's a very nice hack indeed! Thanks for sharing :D

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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
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Location: The Wild West
nice.

*bookmark*


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:49 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:28 am
Posts: 36
we need a plugin with an explicit user interface, just like the picture above, but closed in a cell that we can trigger like a sample. maybe an update to native instruments battery cells, so we can layer drums.

i just put one on top of another... one for the transient, another for the release, or whatever i need, and make them match. i have a few combinations that get along well... but thats less than an ideal approach.

btw, nice trick with the delay there, ill try it.


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 Post subject: Re: Drum layering in Live - best methods + workflow?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:31 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
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Location: Seattle
Imo the best way to go about doing drums in Live is not using the Live devices. Battery imo is a much better tool for drums than drum racks. I also love the Maschine. To me Maschine + Reason + Ableton is a dream workstation.

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