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 Post subject: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:57 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:42 pm
Posts: 331
I am recording a full DJ mix, but have never got the hang of the master channel DJ mix..

I know its a case of putting a Limiter on Ableton's Master channel, and the mixing of two fully limited tracks (in todays loudness wars)! but careful mixing of EQ etc is fine to blend them together, no problem there

Its the master channel and final render that i get stuck with ..

I have the Waves plug ins and sometimes use L2 at the setting "16-bit hi-res master" but maybe lowering the threshold a little? Or is the Ableton Limiter designed for this (as its a DJ tool) at a certain preset?

Also as the tracks overlapping are fully mastered and limited, its trying to get a nice final DJ mixdown without it looking like a brick!

I also select all the tracks/waveforms in Ableton and drop the clip gain slider and drop down all the waveforms to say -5.00db to get some headroom back? Am I doing this right?

Do i need to drop the clip gains of every track? I usually record a quiet mix on the Mac (Ableton) then import into an editor like SoundForge and go through every 5 mins of track (out of the 60 mins!) and do the volume individually looking at the waveform which takes ages?! and is probably laughable and long-winded!!

Is there a specific limiter or compressor for DJ mixes? I know of others that use Mixmeister and use the internal Limiter on master channel and then do the mix, and export? How are professional DJ Mix albums completed?

Its just the master channel / finalizing that im stuck on :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:50 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
buckman wrote:
putting a Limiter on Ableton's Master channel

Putting a limiter on Live's master channel.

buckman wrote:
I also select all the tracks/waveforms in Ableton

You select all the tracks/waveforms in Live.

The software is called Live. Ableton is the company.



If you're working with two "fully limited" tracks, then the output is always going to "look like a brick". You can't "unbrick" it!

I think if I was creating a mix in Live, I'd forget about limiting on the master. Just keep the master gain low enough so it never goes over 0dB, export it, then normalise it in an audio editor. You shouldn't really need to limit or compress stuff that's already been mastered.

Do you not like the results when using the L2? If you're using Live 9, try the Glue compressor on the output.


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:42 pm
Posts: 331
Yes L2 is fine, but I was just wondering how others did this in LIVE recording and mastering a DJ mix consisting of two already mastered tracks being mixed.

I understand that two tracks will result in a mixed waveform of a "brick" but just didn't want to lose to many dynamics, and how did professional mix albums use their master output?

Do I always need to lower every track (clip gain or in case of midi samples - the channel volume) ie: 2 tracks being mixed plus samples over the top until its below the master output threshold, ie: -10.0db but then put a master limiter (L2) to bring this all back up in volume to 0.0db with everything mixed fine?

Thanks for your help.

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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
There really isn't a "correct way" of doing it. It's up to you and your ears. If you think it sounds ok then do it that way.

If you're mixing modern stuff, there isn't any dynamic range to it anyway!

Pro mix albums are probably done over a period of months, tweaked for hours on a DAW to get everything just so.

It's always best to leave a bit of headroom. The same applies when DJing on a mixer. There are lots of DJs who push everything into the red, presumably because they've seen other DJs doing it and think it's the way to "be a real DJ" or something.

Like I said before, rather than keeping everything maxed out and being concerned about getting the master at exactly 0dB, turn them down a bit, do your mix, then maximise it afterwards (if you think it's necessary).

IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:55 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:00 am
Posts: 941
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
It's not like you're recording to reel-to-reel in one take! You're using a DAW, you can edit the shit out of everything. After the fact!

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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:19 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:42 pm
Posts: 331
Ok thanks.. was just after some tips on how others did it and did a full export with the mixed tracks maximized etc.

I think i will do the 90 min mix as normal with eq transitions, then lower the individual mix tracks all to around -7.00db so that the master has some headrrom. Export this as a mix and in an editor, I will just put a L2 Maximizer etc and bring everything up to a loud 0.00 or maybe just under at -0.03db?

This is the way i was doing it, so looks like i maybe was doing it right afterall...


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:57 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
buckman wrote:
looks like I maybe was doing it right after all

As long as the end result isn't distorted, it's "the right way". There's no rule book that says "you have to master DJ mixes like this, or else"! :-)

Think yourself lucky. In years gone by (like Theo says) DMC and the like were recording to 1/4" tape and splicing sections together. If you made a mistake, take two.

Now we have the option of doing everything in a DAW. Load all your tracks, line them up, automate the mixed sections. Done! Don't like it? Change it!

Have you perused the many YouTube videos on making DJ mixes in Live?


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:02 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:42 pm
Posts: 331
102455 wrote:
Have you perused the many YouTube videos on making DJ mixes in Live?


Thanks for your help! Youtube vids would be perfect, but I keep getting more production and sound-alikes in Ableton Live on Youtube??

Do you have any links to specifics, as I can do all the warping and mixing / Eq-ing all fine in LIVE :)

Its the bouncing and rendering all to a 2-track master which i'd love to learn about - any links gratefully receieved and thank you again


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:21 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
Try searching for ableton live dj mastering


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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:46 pm
Posts: 12960
Location: Seattle
Lots of threads about this over at Abletonlivedj.com

Also you don't HAVE to limit the overall mix again, many DJs release mixes without doing this. Just normalize it to -0.3dBFS and don't worry about squashing tracks with limiting that have already been limited. Just my $0.02 though.

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 Post subject: Re: DJ Mix finalising with Limiter in LIVE?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm
Posts: 1388
Location: Berkshire, UK
Yeah, take a look at some long DJ sets on SoundCloud and you'll see they're not all as flat as a.....flat thing.


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