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 Post subject: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 374
So I want to get in the box. I've found myself sampling my hardware synths over and over so that I can layer them, but I really want to cut out the whole step of creating a sound on the hardware and then sampling it into the box. So what I've been doing recently is just sampling their waveforms with their filters wide open, for each key, and importing those into the Ableton sampler.

Awesome, now I can layer analog waveforms much more quickly - but I lose the lovely analog filters! This is kinda tearing me apart, I can't tell what to do.

So I want to find a VST or AU filter that has an envelope generator on it (not just an envelope follower) that actually sounds pretty good. Any ideas? I was looking at Volcano 2 by FabFilter but would love it if anyone can push me in some other directions :D

CPU is a big consideration as I'm hoping to slap this on pretty much any synth sound I have going on, as a replacement for Ableton's filters.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1549
If all you are doing is just sampling a raw waveform, you may as well just use a soft synth to start with...

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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 374
Yea I see your point, I've definitely gave that some thought too. I should probably listen to a fair amount of soft synth waveforms, just haven't gotten around to that quite yet. I definitely think that my Mopho's raw waveforms sound just straight up better than Operator's. I know it's subjective but I think a large part of the analog magic is in the waveform (ESPECIALLY VCOs) and the filter.

Anyway I'm just trying to figure out a way of being able to layer quite a handful of synth parts, like maybe 10-15 instances of synths in a track, without overloading my CPU. And I'm not looking for an answer like "just freeze the tracks" or "bounce to audio" because I want to be able to manipulate and improvise with them on the fly - live. Loading waveforms into Sampler seems to be doing the trick other than having a sub-par filter.

So if there's a decent-sounding soft-synth out there that I can have like, 15 instances of going on, that's awesome - but I just figured pretty much any softsynth is going to start taxing the fuck out of the CPU after maybe 4-5 instances.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am
Posts: 727
U-he DIVA

Also, the point of analog synths are the filters I dont see the point in sampling their waveforms.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:47 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 374
login wrote:
U-he DIVA

Also, the point of analog synths are the filters I dont see the point in sampling their waveforms.


U-he Diva is crazy on CPU though, I heard.

Raw analog waveforms definitely sound better than Ableton's waveforms from Analog. Even comparing raw analog waveforms between different synths you can hear there's a difference, each has it's own kinda of saw, square, etc.

But you're right, the filters are the main defining characteristic. Maybe I'll end up sticking with my old plan and just create patches on the synths and then sample them as they are and then just turning off the sampler of one layer when I want to fuck with it and instead use the external instrument plugin to play it on the synth itself... Just doesn't seem very "flow" persay...


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am
Posts: 727
aioffermann wrote:
login wrote:
U-he DIVA

Also, the point of analog synths are the filters I dont see the point in sampling their waveforms.


U-he Diva is crazy on CPU though, I heard.

Raw analog waveforms definitely sound better than Ableton's waveforms from Analog. Even comparing raw analog waveforms between different synths you can hear there's a difference, each has it's own kinda of saw, square, etc.

But you're right, the filters are the main defining characteristic. Maybe I'll end up sticking with my old plan and just create patches on the synths and then sample them as they are and then just turning off the sampler of one layer when I want to fuck with it and instead use the external instrument plugin to play it on the synth itself... Just doesn't seem very "flow" persay...


You can always freeze tracks. I suggest you try it just to see what can deliver, you never know.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:13 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 374
login wrote:
aioffermann wrote:
login wrote:
U-he DIVA

Also, the point of analog synths are the filters I dont see the point in sampling their waveforms.


U-he Diva is crazy on CPU though, I heard.

Raw analog waveforms definitely sound better than Ableton's waveforms from Analog. Even comparing raw analog waveforms between different synths you can hear there's a difference, each has it's own kinda of saw, square, etc.

But you're right, the filters are the main defining characteristic. Maybe I'll end up sticking with my old plan and just create patches on the synths and then sample them as they are and then just turning off the sampler of one layer when I want to fuck with it and instead use the external instrument plugin to play it on the synth itself... Just doesn't seem very "flow" persay...


You can always freeze tracks. I suggest you try it just to see what can deliver, you never know.


For sure. If Live allowed freezing and unfreezing of tracks without stopping playback - I wouldn't have any problems. This is all in anticipation for playing live, ya know? But yea I'll def try Diva dude, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 12590
I hope you aren't just sampling a single wave from an oscillator and claiming that sounds better.

sampling a sawtooth A3 at 44.1kHz and playing it two octaves down is the same as playing an 11.025 kHz sample. Not nice.

Playing an A1 sawtooth two octaves up is a recipe for horrible aliasing

you better be telling me this is a full key sample set off an analog if you are claiming wondrous sonic quality. Otherwise your ears are shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 374
Angstrom wrote:
I hope you aren't just sampling a single wave from an oscillator and claiming that sounds better.

sampling a sawtooth A3 at 44.1kHz and playing it two octaves down is the same as playing an 11.025 kHz sample. Not nice.

Playing an A1 sawtooth two octaves up is a recipe for horrible aliasing

you better be telling me this is a full key sample set off an analog if you are claiming wondrous sonic quality. Otherwise your ears are shot.


Hehe don't worry I'm right there with ya, I'm sampling the full range the synthesizers offer. I use AutoSampler.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am
Posts: 1420
you can use any filter plugin with your sampler. Isn't it enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:09 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 374
pencilrocket wrote:
you can use any filter plugin with your sampler. Isn't it enough?


Yea of course that's enough! My original question was asking what filters people recommended. I need one that sounds better than Live's, has an envelope generator (not an envelope follower) and isn't so taxing on the CPU - so I can have like, 10 of them.

Doubt I'll find something like that though... Hmmmmm how does one pull of layered synths in a live context??


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:32 am 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am
Posts: 727
aioffermann wrote:
pencilrocket wrote:
you can use any filter plugin with your sampler. Isn't it enough?


Yea of course that's enough! My original question was asking what filters people recommended. I need one that sounds better than Live's, has an envelope generator (not an envelope follower) and isn't so taxing on the CPU - so I can have like, 10 of them.

Doubt I'll find something like that though... Hmmmmm how does one pull of layered synths in a live context??



Using a an Instrument rack which contains each sampled instrument in Sampler.

in fact Instrument racks are an excellent example of layering, look up the presets that use samples+synths, or various samples.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:59 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 1549
aioffermann wrote:
Yea I see your point, I've definitely gave that some thought too. I should probably listen to a fair amount of soft synth waveforms, just haven't gotten around to that quite yet. I definitely think that my Mopho's raw waveforms sound just straight up better than Operator's.



Once you sample the waveform, then it is static and loses the analog-ness anyway... just use a cpu efficient synth plus play your mopho live.

Operator, Ableton Analog, FM8, Sylenth, Dune, Zebra are all pretty easy on the cpu (Zebra is remarkably versatile)

Diva sounds fantastic and for me is worth the cpu use... it is also less cpu on the lower quality mode and still sounds very good for many presets.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:45 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:26 pm
Posts: 387
What about routing the audio of your layered synths back to the Mopho to use its filter? If I understand you right you want to be able to manipulate the filter settings of each layer separately in a live situation and I'm not sure how a set would have to look like to do this. But it seems to me like a possible road to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to get more in the box but Ableton's filters are meh...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:25 am
Posts: 1036
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