Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

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Citizen
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Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Citizen » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:21 pm

I have Fabfilter Pro-Q, which before Live 9, was my go to EQ.

I was just thinking, should I replace all instances of EQ8 that I have in my various custom rack with Pro-Q on its Linear Phase mode?

Is this important for general usage, or only in certain circumstances - such as layering drum samples?

Tarekith
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Tarekith » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:08 am

Why do you want to use linear phase in the first place?
Last edited by Tarekith on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

fishmonkey
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:34 am

linear phase EQ is not necessarily 'better' than minimum phase EQ, both introduce artifacts. this is a good primer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKabAQQsPQ

AxfromMuc
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by AxfromMuc » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:12 am

I knew that video but now I finally understood it (at least halfway). Thank you for pointing to the video.
After watching it, I think it makes sense to have a linear phase EQ as an addition to the EQ8.

What are other good linear EQs besides Pro-Q ? Guess Waves and UAD are the answer.

sowhoso
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by sowhoso » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:29 am

on a side note... whether you own FabFilter products or not, all of Dan Worrall's videos are highly educational. clear, precise, to the point. the best free tutorials out there, bar none

he has videos on other stuff like Alchemy and u-he plugins

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=FL ... vIQ9uyqiXw

dnbhallifax
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by dnbhallifax » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:23 am

As mentioned above, Minimum Phase and Linear Phase both have different pluses and minuses.
EQs are a lot more complicated than you'd first imagine, and creating one in software is a lot more complex than you'd probably imagine... Either way I'd say lean toward Pro-Q or something comparable.

http://www.dancemusicproduction.com/sessions-06-eq/
That is a tutorial I personally think anyone who is self taught should see; it altered my entire understanding of EQ; not simply as an approach, but - it's a 3 1/2 hour in depth explanation of everything from the why and how they were invented, to the difference between software verses analog EQs (and they are vast... Sorry if I sound like a frickin salesman LOL. It really is phenomenal though...)

Back to your question - the ultimate answer is it depends on 2 things:
1. personal preference. 2. What the source audio is...

Software EQs are quite different from hardware EQs as far as how they work.

Digital Minimum phase EQs are typically based around, or modeled on real world desk EQs. Not always modeling a particular EQ per se, as much as going for the same ballpark results...
As explained in the tutorial... think about this - all the "classic" (i.e. pre-2000...) albums we either grew up listening to, or have been exposed to later in life were mixed before the days of software. Our ears ARE accustomed to minor phase shift through EQ. We've been hearing it most of our lives and we tend to like it ... The phase shift of one EQ vs another typically provided a particular color that an engineer favored about a particular EQ.

With linear phase you do get zero phase shift, which on paper sounds like a good thing. But as explained, often introduces transient smearing, or "pre-ringing".
Essentially linear phase is something you probably wouldn't want to use on drums, or transient material like acoustic guitars, or use to do much boosting.

Typically a linear phase EQ will be used on a whole mix moreso than an instrument. But again, MANY engineers do prefer a minimum phase EQ on a mix due to color.
Mastering engineers often don't favor one or the other. Some prefer a combination, some prefer minimum phase, some linear, but again, they are typically making very small moves of a dB or less, so if using linear phase, it's introducing as few artifacts as possible while keeping the phase in tact...

So... I guess it's ultimately whatever you prefer, but obviously more often than not people tend to favor minimum phase.

That tutorial will make you seriously question using your DAW Eqs unless for something really basic, like notches and narrow cuts... basically, think of the time Ableton spent developing EQ8 vs the time and research that went into Pro-Q, Alloy etc... 8)

AxfromMuc
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by AxfromMuc » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:45 pm

thank you for your detailed explanation on this. I also see a linar phase EQ as an addition to a minimum phase EQ.
I am surprised by the complexity of EQing. So for me linear EQing looks a bit more straight forward to use.

And I really likes the fabfilter videos done by Dan Worrall. I will check out some more of him.
And I am thinking of buying a bundle of fabfilter tools because I really like the GUI and the handling.

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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Sage » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:13 pm

Linear involves varying latency, so when it is used is very important as it can mess timing up quite badly if used incorrectly. Which makes it very much a mixing/mastering tool and not something to replace all EQs with.

Tarekith
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Tarekith » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:23 pm

Check out DMG Audio's Equilibrium too, best EQ ever made, hands down. Well, for me (and a lot of others).

Angstrom
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:20 pm

Am I wrong in thinking that Andy Cytomic changed the filters in Live 9's version of EQ8 to be Linear SVF ?

Or as I dimly remember him commenting "very nearly linear".

It is for this reason that we can now rack a HiQ eq8 in parallel with an empty chain and no longer hear phase issues, as were heard in live 8. And that's one of the main reasons that Live 9 has been reported to "sound better". Less of the comb filtering, less transient smearing.
I look forward to the day I can use it.

Sage
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Sage » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:08 pm

Angstrom wrote:Am I wrong in thinking that Andy Cytomic changed the filters in Live 9's version of EQ8 to be Linear SVF ?

Or as I dimly remember him commenting "very nearly linear".

It is for this reason that we can now rack a HiQ eq8 in parallel with an empty chain and no longer hear phase issues, as were heard in live 8. And that's one of the main reasons that Live 9 has been reported to "sound better". Less of the comb filtering, less transient smearing.
I look forward to the day I can use it.
Different use of "linear" (As in linear/logarithmic I'd assume), as it would be pretty stupid to only have a linear phase EQ as the only EQ in a DAW, especially one intended for live use.

Angstrom
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:22 pm

ah, I see. I may have become confused with that and the linearity of the oversampling.
It's my natural resting state. confused


Andy Cytomic comments
viewtopic.php?p=1476203#p1476203

AxfromMuc
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by AxfromMuc » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:56 am

you guys curbed my enthusiasm. so using plugins like PRO-Q let me run into this Ableton PDC problem everyone is bitching about?

I just found this: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 00#5352000

another thought about this: this PDC issue only occurs when you are playing tracks from Live. But rendered and exported tracks won't have this issues, right?

Citizen
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by Citizen » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:33 am

Wow - great responses guys. Thanks for going into so much depth. Ill have a read and a watch of those videos and post back once I've absorbed it all.

And yes, Dan Worrel is the man.

GUY SMILEY
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Re: Should I replace my EQ8s with a linear phase EQ?

Post by GUY SMILEY » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:53 pm

AxfromMuc wrote:you guys curbed my enthusiasm. so using plugins like PRO-Q let me run into this Ableton PDC problem everyone is bitching about?

I just found this: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 00#5352000

another thought about this: this PDC issue only occurs when you are playing tracks from Live. But rendered and exported tracks won't have this issues, right?
that thread on kvr makes for interesting reading. Thanks

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