Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Angstrom » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:56 pm

Mint Invader wrote:
DO NOTE: The headphone port on the audio 6 does not give off these artifacts.
that's a weird one.
So it's not apparently radio noise picked up by the NI audio device, or it would be present on the Phones out> it is different between the Headphone out and the Monitor outs. Which suggests that something in the signal chain for the monitors is picking up radio frequencies. Perhaps the amps for the monitors themselves are picking up RF from the tower.

Does this computer have any components such as crummy wifi cards, or cheap assed video cards with no suppression, which might transmit RF to the monitor amps.

If the signal chain has facilities for balanced XLR cables (Card>amps>monitors), use them. That ought to help. But still, something is emitting RF enough for it to be picked up. So you probably ought to kill that at the source

Mint Invader
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Mint Invader » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:01 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Mint Invader wrote:
DO NOTE: The headphone port on the audio 6 does not give off these artifacts.
that's a weird one.
So it's not apparently radio noise picked up by the NI audio device, or it would be present on the Phones out> it is different between the Headphone out and the Monitor outs. Which suggests that something in the signal chain for the monitors is picking up radio frequencies. Perhaps the amps for the monitors themselves are picking up RF from the tower.

Does this computer have any components such as crummy wifi cards, or cheap assed video cards with no suppression, which might transmit RF to the monitor amps.

If the signal chain has facilities for balanced XLR cables (Card>amps>monitors), use them. That ought to help. But still, something is emitting RF enough for it to be picked up. So you probably ought to kill that at the source
Using integrated graphics, and have tested with and without the wifi pci card.


Its why my guess is a weird dirty power draw from the surge protector.
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yur2die4
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by yur2die4 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:10 pm

From what I gather, the main factors are:

Power supply/computer activity. Any time the hard drive does things, you can hear it bleeping and grinding away digitally. And it'll get quiet at other times. Or slow down activity. Whenever the computer is more alert, it is as if every internal action it makes, is represented somehow through the power supply.

The speakers drawing power from the same source. Headphones get their power from the audio interface. Speakers draw their power from the same source as the audio supply. And the interference is picked up, and sent to them.

MachineClaw
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by MachineClaw » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:14 pm

Have you moved the Monitors (speakers) away from the USB interface and from the computer?

You may have unshielded monitor (speaker) cables, maybe a short or sometimes just making sure they are really seated and connected to interface can make a huge difference.

If you can listen via headphone and you are not hearing this problem then it has something to do with the interface/cables/monitors(speakers).

if you have desktop and monitors on same power bar sometimes moving where they are plugged into can make a difference - like one at end of powerstrip and other at other end of power strip.

also check all cabling and make sure nothing is touching..

those are the free easy things to check before C. killing self. LOL.

arafel
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by arafel » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:05 pm

Has similar with my FA-66 interface.

Imho - Balanced Audio cables (xlr) eliminated the noise.
I was using unbalanced... and it sounded very similar to a ground fault.
Balanced cables were like.. $18. Well worth it.
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Frederik654
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Frederik654 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:15 pm

arafel wrote:Imho - Balanced Audio cables (xlr) eliminated the noise.
This is true and should be a no brainer. Had the same with unbalanced cables, 100% gone with balanced cables.
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Mint Invader
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Mint Invader » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:35 am

UPDATE:

So the battery backup did not improve upon the situation. However I think I have it narrowed down further. Upon experimenting with my power settings (performance vs battery saver) I noticed that there was a constant buzz generated. So... its a power thing thats somehow leaking through the power supply to the usb.

So what would be a good shielded usb cable to buy?
Because Whatever.

yur2die4
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by yur2die4 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:51 am

I found this, it is probably related:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslut ... noise.html

I'm experimenting with configurations at home.

I have two different situations where I commonly run into this problem.

1. My laptop on the same outlets as my mixer/monitors

2. A spare monitor that I have connected to a USB/midi keyboard with inboard sounds powered via USB hub.

In 1. I can connect audio interface to USB and have audio interface audio out go to mixer and the sound is highly exaggerated. When I unplugged the power of my laptop, it was completely gone. When I plugged it back in, and unplugged the USB cable (causing my audio interface to have no power), my mixer/monitors seem quiet, everything muted (warning, its a behringer.......), as things seemed 'mostly quietish', my laptop did something for a moment, and suddenly there was some buzzing from my monitors.. Even though I was muted, and had no USB connection.

In 2. If I unplug the cable to the keyboard, the buzz is much more faint. When I instead pull the power adapter of the USB hub out of the outlet, it eliminates some hums.

That is just some experiments I tried.

xmonsta
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by xmonsta » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:49 pm

Might sound random, but have you tried using a different power socket for the PC, vs Soundcard, vs Monitors? Also, to keep the monitor cables as far away as possible from the PC and any power supply/plug socket.

I found that moving my cables around would cause interference to come out of the speakers and also had everything plugged into the same multiplug socket. Once I changed these things my interference went away.
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moonpie
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by moonpie » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:28 pm

Could be a p state issue with your processors - try this - switching minimal processor speed on charging to 100% http://superuser.com/questions/323738/w ... management . This works for vista and up. If youre on xp youll have to get a 3rd party program to do it.

Also while youre in that dialog, change any usb settings to stop them from sleeping/power saving.

Also check your bios for any weird power saving techniques, best bet is pop open bios, write down any options you can change, then google them and what the effect of switching them is.


Definitely think youre barking up the wrong tree with the usb cable - that 'high end' gold plated usb nonsense is marketing bullshit. Im sure someone will back me up on this. All you need to be sure is that your usb cable works 100%. It either works or it doesnt. If it isnt working, it wont provide the right amount of power or itll cut out. It simply wont introduce noise like an audio cable, and as youve proven, the headphone out is perfect. So dont waste money that way.


Try this - with you headphones on low, connect your headphone port to a speaker - see if the noise presents itself.

Mint Invader
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Mint Invader » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:05 pm

moonpie wrote:Could be a p state issue with your processors - try this - switching minimal processor speed on charging to 100% http://superuser.com/questions/323738/w ... management . This works for vista and up. If youre on xp youll have to get a 3rd party program to do it.

Also while youre in that dialog, change any usb settings to stop them from sleeping/power saving.

Also check your bios for any weird power saving techniques, best bet is pop open bios, write down any options you can change, then google them and what the effect of switching them is.


Definitely think youre barking up the wrong tree with the usb cable - that 'high end' gold plated usb nonsense is marketing bullshit. Im sure someone will back me up on this. All you need to be sure is that your usb cable works 100%. It either works or it doesnt. If it isnt working, it wont provide the right amount of power or itll cut out. It simply wont introduce noise like an audio cable, and as youve proven, the headphone out is perfect. So dont waste money that way.


Try this - with you headphones on low, connect your headphone port to a speaker - see if the noise presents itself.
Good to know about the usb.

As of now it seems that the farther away the usb port I plug into (away from psu) and the farther away the power chord from the monitors power chords... lessens the problem.

God this is insanely frustrating.


I did fiddle with power settings the other night. I did notice a drop in noise when I set things to power saver. And when I changed it to high performance the noises were near constant.

At least this is narrowing it down more.

Edit: Ill take some pictures of the rig, placement, cables, and load them up to give you guys a better idea of whats working and whats not.
Because Whatever.

Mint Invader
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Mint Invader » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:28 pm

Because Whatever.

yur2die4
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:58 pm

That is the sound I get.

Luckily my wall outlets are somehow saving me the headache. I don't know how. I am pretty sure that at other houses I've been to, it didn't help.

But, because I take my computer to other places, I plan to eventually invest in the Ebtech Audio 'hum-x' hum exterminator.

I saw it recommended in the forum thread which I linked to above.

And then read reviews of it on various sites.

It sounds like the solution... but at 73$... Yeesh. Plus, it is kind of odd how some computers/power supplies avoid having this issue while others don't.

From the thread, I've pretty much narrowed down the Name of the problem to being a ground loop. Apparently a lot of apple products don't necessarily use grounded plugs. Because of that, they mostly do not have the ground loop problem. And, you also can get small shocks from them sometimes supposedly.
Last edited by yur2die4 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

moonpie
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by moonpie » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:43 pm

Mint Invader wrote:
moonpie wrote:Could be a p state issue with your processors - try this - switching minimal processor speed on charging to 100% http://superuser.com/questions/323738/w ... management . This works for vista and up. If youre on xp youll have to get a 3rd party program to do it.

Also while youre in that dialog, change any usb settings to stop them from sleeping/power saving.

Also check your bios for any weird power saving techniques, best bet is pop open bios, write down any options you can change, then google them and what the effect of switching them is.


Definitely think youre barking up the wrong tree with the usb cable - that 'high end' gold plated usb nonsense is marketing bullshit. Im sure someone will back me up on this. All you need to be sure is that your usb cable works 100%. It either works or it doesnt. If it isnt working, it wont provide the right amount of power or itll cut out. It simply wont introduce noise like an audio cable, and as youve proven, the headphone out is perfect. So dont waste money that way.


Try this - with you headphones on low, connect your headphone port to a speaker - see if the noise presents itself.
Good to know about the usb.

As of now it seems that the farther away the usb port I plug into (away from psu) and the farther away the power chord from the monitors power chords... lessens the problem.

God this is insanely frustrating.


I did fiddle with power settings the other night. I did notice a drop in noise when I set things to power saver. And when I changed it to high performance the noises were near constant.

At least this is narrowing it down more.

Edit: Ill take some pictures of the rig, placement, cables, and load them up to give you guys a better idea of whats working and whats not.




Ok, if you are noticing a difference with it set to power saver - you can narrow down the problem even more in that settings pane I gave. So - under the power saver settings, write all of them down. You can recreate the exact same settings one by one under high performance, and find out exactly which one is helping.

Power Saver, Balanced, High Performance are all just preset names, and after a user changing the inner settings can have no relation to their actual name. So one by one, you can make 'high performance' have the settings of 'power saver'. Zero advantage doing this - Except, it helps you narrow down the problem. What specific aspect of power saving is helping the situation. (take down the high performance settings 1st!)

If power saving is making a big diff - that could point to processor interference. What processor are you using? I would google "my processor weird interference speakers" or something to that effect. People might be experiencing it in non critical audio situations so wont be on music forums.


What else... we're pretty much running through every possible audio noise that there is! :)

Disable the built in soundcard. Thats an obvious one. Do that through device manager. Right click, or double click and disable - not uninstall. Itll be somewhere there.

Ive heard of conflicts between different parts of hardware using the same internal power source - or some windows number thing I cant remember. Anyways - Disable the cd drive. The wifi card. Sound card. Do that all through device manager. You can always enable a second later - you never know!

Last idea if it hasnt been suggested, get a lend of a powered usb hub. Must be powered. Check it then. Or buy one, they go really cheap on amazon, and youll find a use for it eventually even if it doesnt work.

Mint Invader
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Re: Built my first computer... and HOOBOY I GOTS A HUGE PROBLEM!

Post by Mint Invader » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:57 pm

moonpie wrote:
Mint Invader wrote:
moonpie wrote:Could be a p state issue with your processors - try this - switching minimal processor speed on charging to 100% http://superuser.com/questions/323738/w ... management . This works for vista and up. If youre on xp youll have to get a 3rd party program to do it.

Also while youre in that dialog, change any usb settings to stop them from sleeping/power saving.

Also check your bios for any weird power saving techniques, best bet is pop open bios, write down any options you can change, then google them and what the effect of switching them is.


Definitely think youre barking up the wrong tree with the usb cable - that 'high end' gold plated usb nonsense is marketing bullshit. Im sure someone will back me up on this. All you need to be sure is that your usb cable works 100%. It either works or it doesnt. If it isnt working, it wont provide the right amount of power or itll cut out. It simply wont introduce noise like an audio cable, and as youve proven, the headphone out is perfect. So dont waste money that way.


Try this - with you headphones on low, connect your headphone port to a speaker - see if the noise presents itself.
Good to know about the usb.

As of now it seems that the farther away the usb port I plug into (away from psu) and the farther away the power chord from the monitors power chords... lessens the problem.

God this is insanely frustrating.


I did fiddle with power settings the other night. I did notice a drop in noise when I set things to power saver. And when I changed it to high performance the noises were near constant.

At least this is narrowing it down more.

Edit: Ill take some pictures of the rig, placement, cables, and load them up to give you guys a better idea of whats working and whats not.




Ok, if you are noticing a difference with it set to power saver - you can narrow down the problem even more in that settings pane I gave. So - under the power saver settings, write all of them down. You can recreate the exact same settings one by one under high performance, and find out exactly which one is helping.

Power Saver, Balanced, High Performance are all just preset names, and after a user changing the inner settings can have no relation to their actual name. So one by one, you can make 'high performance' have the settings of 'power saver'. Zero advantage doing this - Except, it helps you narrow down the problem. What specific aspect of power saving is helping the situation. (take down the high performance settings 1st!)

If power saving is making a big diff - that could point to processor interference. What processor are you using? I would google "my processor weird interference speakers" or something to that effect. People might be experiencing it in non critical audio situations so wont be on music forums.


What else... we're pretty much running through every possible audio noise that there is! :)

Disable the built in soundcard. Thats an obvious one. Do that through device manager. Right click, or double click and disable - not uninstall. Itll be somewhere there.

Ive heard of conflicts between different parts of hardware using the same internal power source - or some windows number thing I cant remember. Anyways - Disable the cd drive. The wifi card. Sound card. Do that all through device manager. You can always enable a second later - you never know!

Last idea if it hasnt been suggested, get a lend of a powered usb hub. Must be powered. Check it then. Or buy one, they go really cheap on amazon, and youll find a use for it eventually even if it doesnt work.

USB hub (powered) didnt help. I did disable the onboard soundcard and I removed the wireless pci card... but to no avail.

When I get home Ill try out further tweaking power settings.
Because Whatever.

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