BASS GUITAR recording techniques-how are you doing it?

[3dot...]

Moreover, the input recording signal has to be as close to the undistorted maximum as possible.

if you are talking about the input level to your audio interface, then as long as you are recording in 24 bit, then this "recording as hot as possible without clipping" approach is not necessary.

peaks at -6dB is cool..(audio interface input)
although.. if you're recording through a bass amp.. the hotness of the input will change it's tone...
this is also usually true for inputs of plugins trying to emulate hardware..
use your ears...

[Pasha]

Moreover, the input recording signal has to be as close to the undistorted maximum as possible.

if you are talking about the input level to your audio interface, then as long as you are recording in 24 bit, then this "recording as hot as possible without clipping" approach is not necessary.

It might be my setup but I have noticed that even if I record at 44/24 when recording @ low volume the sound is different and less punchy than at almost 0 db. I use a Cort Curbow with a very powerful active circuit. However when I record my guitar which is not active your sentence applies. I was talking about the meters in live in the armed track and on my mixer (they are both close to 0db). The trust your ears suggested by 3Dot is the one that pays it all!
My Audio interface has only Line Inputs, hence the Mixer in between.

Thanks,
Pasha

[3dot...]

Pash...
what you're experiencing is due to the human ear..
perceived loudness

with both similar volume (in dB)...
the guitar will sound louder to your ear than the bass...
because its frequency content falls right into the frequencies which we are most sensitive to ("mid-range")
the bass frequencies need more energy to sound as loud to your ear
see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

[fishmonkey]

also, your situation is a little different since you only have line inputs on your audio interface, thus your gain structure is the output level on your guitar, plus the preamp setting on your mixer, both of which are likely to colour the sound at different levels. which mixer are you using?

oh, and are you doing equal loudness comparisons between the different recordings?

[Pasha]

also, your situation is a little different since you only have line inputs on your audio interface, thus your gain structure is the output level on your guitar, plus the preamp setting on your mixer, both of which are likely to colour the sound at different levels. which mixer are you using?

oh, and are you doing equal loudness comparisons between the different recordings?

Warning : I am not a native English speaker so my interpretation of terms might be misleading... sorry.

As a mixer I use this : http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MX802A.aspx
I did not made any real (I mean audio accurate) comparison but more on the empiric side using my ears.
What came out was that when recorded at lower level the dynamic range (the fullness of the Bass sound)
was not popping out in the mix like I wanted. In this case (http://alonetone.com/pasha/tracks/along-the-way) I had to re record the Bass Guitar Track at an higher volume, tweaking the gain knob on the mixer input track. I think your analysis is very good especially because the Audio path is not straight. I route the preEQ aux of the mixer track to the Audio Line Inputs of the sound card so that I can have zero latency and record (monitor is off in the Live Track) while shaping the sound as I like during recording (using mixer tones) but recording the Active EQ flat output from the Bass. Moreover I use the gain knob to level the signal (channels can go from mic to line and all in between)
Let me know if this explanation helps,

Best
Pasha

[Dragonbreath]

Let me clarify what they mean pasha.

Once you have recorded your bass signal, did you increase the gain in live? What they are saying is that if you record the same bass at lower level and boost the gain digital in the software (via clip gain for example) you should get an equivalant sound to recording louder (because the gain is now matching for the 2 version the tonal differences should negligebal).

This is is not always true though as mic pres tend to have different sounds at different level.

Essentialy when recording in 24bit you can boost the gain digitally without introducing alot of noise. This means you can record a bit lower gain to not worry about clipping the signal and then easily make up for it in the software after the fact.

Volume matching is important when comparing 2 different signals as the louder one tends to sound better. As also mentionned your ears will hear certain frequencies more easily.

[Tone Deft]

Essentialy when recording in 24bit you can boost the gain digitally without introducing alot of noise. This means you can record a bit lower gain to not worry about clipping the signal and then easily make up for it in the software after the fact..

nope. the noise at the analog input is a constant. the louder the bass the better the signal to noise ratio. bit depth has nothing to do with it.

[hacktheplanet]

Fender American Jazz -> Ampeg SVT-CL -> Ampeg 2x10" , 1x15" -> Shure SM 57 (positioned a few inches from halfway between the center and edge of one of the 10" speakers, and about 6 inches from the grill, gain very high but input volume very low)
AND
Fender American Jazz -> Tech21 Bass Driver -> Audio interface.

For the MIC'ed signal I usually bandpass a bit because I like the midrange sounds like Ampeg sexxx. The DI signal is the opposite so I can get clean lows. Otherwise it kind of depends on the project.

[Pasha]

Let me clarify what they mean pasha.

Once you have recorded your bass signal, did you increase the gain in live? What they are saying is that if you record the same bass at lower level and boost the gain digital in the software (via clip gain for example) you should get an equivalant sound to recording louder (because the gain is now matching for the 2 version the tonal differences should negligebal).

This is is not always true though as mic pres tend to have different sounds at different level.

Essentialy when recording in 24bit you can boost the gain digitally without introducing alot of noise. This means you can record a bit lower gain to not worry about clipping the signal and then easily make up for it in the software after the fact.

Volume matching is important when comparing 2 different signals as the louder one tends to sound better. As also mentionned your ears will hear certain frequencies more easily.

When I recorded at lower level I had to use utility or Clip gain a lot but I was not satisfied with the results.
When I started recording at an higher level (not clipping but substantially higher) I stopped using utility or clip gain and the sound was full and popped in the mix like I wanted sometimes for faster passages I use a little compression but that's all.

[Dragonbreath]

Essentialy when recording in 24bit you can boost the gain digitally without introducing alot of noise. This means you can record a bit lower gain to not worry about clipping the signal and then easily make up for it in the software after the fact..

nope. the noise at the analog input is a constant. the louder the bass the better the signal to noise ratio. bit depth has nothing to do with it.

24 bit gives you more headroom you dont NEED to record as hot with 24 bit as opposed to 16 bit. Of course a hotter signal will have more room above the noise floor, but its not as crucial as with 16 bit. Thats the whole of point of 24 bit.

[Tone Deft]

nope, the signal to noise ratio is the same regardless of the amount of headroom.

headroom gets you out of trouble once you've already captured the signal. we're talking about the point where you capture the signal.

[Dragonbreath]

nope, the signal to noise ratio is the same regardless of the amount of headroom.

headroom gets you out of trouble once you've already captured the signal. we're talking about the point where you capture the signal.

How is that different from what I said?
24 bit gives you more room to boost the gain digitally after the fact. Hence why you dont NEED to record AS hot. ??

[Tone Deft]

'boost the gain' isn't even using the basic vocabulary correctly.

this is basic stuff. you record as loud as you can to keep the signal to noise ratio high. the noise is constant, the only variable is the signal. that's the analog side, it has NOTHING to do with bit depth. any operation afterwards will affect both noise and signal. boost the signal and the noise goes up by the same amount.

headroom is useful for mixing signals together, EQing and whatnot without having to play with the levels to avoid clipping.

hopefully we're saying the same thing and it's just a language thing, it really doesn't matter to me.

[Tone Deft]

for that matter the amount of headroom you have doesn't have to link to the bit depth. the 0dB point in a system is arbitrary. in theory you can design a 16 bit system with more headroom than a 24 bit system albeit you'd have a poor signal to noise ratio.

[3dot...]

'boost the gain' isn't even using the basic vocabulary correctly.

this is basic stuff. you record as loud as you can to keep the signal to noise ratio high. the noise is constant, the only variable is the signal. that's the analog side, it has NOTHING to do with bit depth. any operation afterwards will affect both noise and signal. boost the signal and the noise goes up by the same amount.

headroom is useful for mixing signals together, EQing and whatnot without having to play with the levels to avoid clipping.

hopefully we're saying the same thing and it's just a language thing, it really doesn't matter to me.

in any case.. 16bit or 24 bit.. peaks at -6dB
should give a big enough SNR there's no need to aim to get near unity level
(and accidentally clip the inputs)
provided your recording chain isn't hella noisy in the 1st place.. and you're not pushing the gain on 3 different preamps
remember that a lot of the information gets filtered out at the A/D conversion stage...
the noise floor is lower than the olden days also due to less transistors and high powered gear..
and besides.. the recorded file will be lowered in the mix in any case..

TD.. I love your approach..
your approach is more old school analog desk to tape style...
you should try to record as high as you can..
use the most pristine signal chain as you can..
even 'warm' the signal up by clipping or saturating the tape...
those were the days...

DB...
24 bit means a finer resolution to represent volume...
it's not "really" a bigger range..
just more steps to the same length of ladder...