Another horrible change in L9 ? clip automation into arrange

[chapelier fou]

(Edited : nothing to do with the fact it's unlinked clip automation)

It happens with the unlinked clip envelopes when you paste a clip from session to arrangement

L8 : make a clip containing unlinked automation. (with a no round length so it keeps drifting)
Paste it into arrangement. No probs, same effect.

L9 : When you paste it in arrangement, instead of this, it draws an automation in arrangement, the same length as the unlinked automation and then holds the value. stretching the clip will ignore the unlinked automation.

This really sucks.
God tell me i missed something or i'll really go back to L8. Enough is enough.

[chapelier fou]

Actually it has nothing to do with the unlinked automation....it does the same with linked automation !
Make a looped clip in session, with a parameter automated. Paste it to arrangement.
Stretch it so it loops a few times : the automation is written in arrangement, for the original length, so it doesn't loop with the clip !
Am i dreaming ? that's insanely stupid.

[chapelier fou]

So to summarize : L9 copies the clip's automation into the arrangement automation whereas L8 keeps the clip's automation in the clip.

What i don't get is if i open a live 8 project, L9 reads it correctly (at least), displaying a clip automation in the arrangement view exactly like in L8.

[chapelier fou]

Clip envelopes (volume, transpo, offset, etc...) seem to work fine. But automating anything from a device seem to cause this bad behavior.

[chapelier fou]

Here is the mail i just sent to ableton support, it explains clearly how to reproduce. It's driving me mad !

Hi,
I am running into a very annoying problem with clip automation (In L9, latest version). The bad behavior happens when you copy a clip containing automation from session view and then paste it in arrangement view.
Let me describe the workflow :
Load a loop into an audio clip. load, let's say, an autofilter in the same track and draw an automation for the cutoff frequency. copy the clip. Paste it in the arrangement view. You'll notice that an automation has been drew in the arrangement for the cutoff, and it disappeared in the copied clip. The effect is, instead of looping, your automation stops after one time !
In L8, doing the same wouldn't add any automation in the arrangement, and would keep the original automation inside the clip. I've also noticed that it's still working like this in L9 for the 'clip' parameters in the envelope section of the clips.

thank you

[the bite]

hello chapelier,
this is the first thing i noticed when beta testing live 9 and there was an explanation for it.First live 8 was about modulation and didn,t have session view automation.Session view automation it,s for live 9.
The idea it,s that automation belongs to clips and no to the arrangement.
If you want your automation to be 4 bars you need to make the clip 4 bars before you put it in the arrangement view.This works in this way when you make the translation with the mouse. If you play the clip on session view and hit record, the automation will copy as you want.You,ll see all the automation copy the right way.
To see the new behavior:
make a clip 4 bars long.
Make and unlinked automation small than 4 bars, for example 1 bar and loop on.You.ll see the automation converts into a new 4 bars loops.

So the workflow it,s diffrent with automation:
if you need the automation to be for example 18 bars and your clip it,s only 1 bar, you have 2 options.
First record into the arrangement a 18 bars.
Or if you use the mouse you need to make the clip 18 bars before to put in the arrangement, so you need to duplicate the length of your one bar loop until you have 18 bars and then put in the arrangement view.

Modulations works the same way as Live 8 and only it,s visible on clip view.

Hope that helps !

[chapelier fou]

Damn, what you write just frightens me.
what about clips lasting, like 200 bars ?

The reason why i LOVE using unlinked clip automation is to create 'never' repeating sequences :
let's say you automate 3 parameters.
1st automation lasts 3.4.1
2st automation lasts 5.0.3
3nd automation lasts 9.2.1 bars.
Ok now can you predict the length before it starts the same sequence again ? And would you want to manually duplicate the envelopes in the arrangement, paying careful attention to not make mistake in selecting their length ?

Unlinked automation are also really cool for polyrhythmical envelopes : 3/16th against 4/16th against 5/16th and instant rhythm. Now do that by hand, it's a pain in the ass and so is to make mistakes.

Damn it's so annoying. This is THE thing which makes me go back to live 8.
But fuck yeah, i'll still need to buy the new versions, cause there are stuff in m4l that i can only do in L9 so....
I wish i never went into software.

[the bite]

i don,t understand.
What you can create in live 8 it,s only unlinked modulations, no unlinked automations.
This is the same behaviour in Live 9.

Live 9 has a plus on automation on session view.
1st automation lasts 3.4.1
2st automation lasts 5.0.3
3nd automation lasts 9.2.1 bars.

No problem, if your clip has a 16 bar loops every unlinked envelope will loop when it must do it.
1st automation every 3.4.1
2st automation every 5.0.3
3nd automation every 9.2.1 bars.
But when your clip past the 16 bar loop every envelope will stop looping, because your clip it,s 16 bar.

I will love it will loop with the clip like modulations, but they have different concepts for automation.

Unlinked modulations envelope didn,t change in live 9 from live 8.

[chapelier fou]

haha, here's another stupid thing :
make a short clip, let's say 1 bar. Draw a 16 bars automation in it. Drop it into arrangement : it's now a 16 bars clip ! (and ooops it just erased what was there before !)

[the bite]

yes, i was trying to explain to you, length of the clip or the automation, defines the lenght of the clip you will put in the arrangement.
create a unliked envelope of 64 bars, it will create a 64 bar clip.

[chapelier fou]

What you can create in live 8 it,s only unlinked modulations, no unlinked automations.

please clarify what's the difference between modulation and automation.

No problem, if your clip has a 16 bar loops every unlinked envelope will loop when it must do it.
1st automation every 3.4.1
2st automation every 5.0.3
3nd automation every 9.2.1 bars.
But when your clip past the 16 bar loop every envelope will stop looping, because your clip it,s 16 bar.

Yeah but the complex automation pattern should last much more than 16 bars, that's the point of doing this kind of modulation.

[the bite]

the thing about this new session view automation, and it,s for other topic it was that a lot of people, me included, on the beta were complaining about not be able to unlink a envelope with a midi controller.
So now you can,t create unlinked automations on the fly, a lot of people want to do it.Record unlinked envelopes on the fly for every parameter but they didn,t included this option yet in live.I hope it,s the next step.

[chapelier fou]

Let's make it simpler :
16 bar clip. Unlinked automation lasting 15 bars.
Copy/paste the clip in the arrangement. Duplicate it several times : your automation will be 15-1-15-1-15-1....instead of 15-15-15-15.....

[chapelier fou]

the thing about this new session view automation, and it,s for other topic it was that a lot of people, me included, on the beta were complaining about not be able to unlink a envelope with a midi controller.
So now you can,t create unlinked automations on the fly, a lot of people want to do it.Record unlinked envelopes on the fly for every parameter but they didn,t included this option yet in live.I hope it,s the next step.

i totally agree but it has nothing to do with the topic !

[the bite]

Let's make it simpler :
16 bar clip. Unlinked automation lasting 15 bars.
Copy/paste the clip in the arrangement. Duplicate it several times : your automation will be 15-1-15-1-15-1....instead of 15-15-15-15.....

The way that automation works when you copy/paste and not live recording it,s that automation doesn,t loop on the arrangement.It would be nice but doesn,t work in this way with automation.