Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:03 pm

Buleriachk wrote:Cool, I'll tell all the Blues players I know about that; I'm sure they'll be excited..
(at least the guys who play blues notes....)
stringtapper wrote:
Are we talking standard blues, jazz blues, Bird blues…? There are many variations.

The C7->B7 resolution is called a tritone substitution.
Uh, you know some blues players who don't play "blues" notes…?

:?

:lol:
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Buleriachk
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by Buleriachk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:23 pm

I know a lot of Blues players that play blues notes. I don't know any that play tritones. The ones I used to know switched over to jazz....

They found that the Maj7th was better suited to background music for clink-and-drink customers in suburban bars where they were actually getting paid ....

this was before YouTube and the internet, of course..
stringtapper wrote:
Buleriachk wrote:Cool, I'll tell all the Blues players I know about that; I'm sure they'll be excited..
(at least the guys who play blues notes....)
Uh, you know some blues players who don't play "blues" notes…?

:?

:lol:

stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:35 pm

Buleriachk wrote:("Blues Turnaround" is a LOT clearer than "German Sixth" to someone learning Blues guitar)...
Who in the hell in this conversation (or on this planet for that matter) equated a blues turnaround with a German Augmented Sixth chord? :?

One is a progression, one is a chord. :|

Truly bizarre my friend.
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stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:38 pm

Buleriachk wrote:I know a lot of Blues players that play blues notes. I don't know any that play tritones. The ones I used to know switched over to jazz....
Seeing as the dominant seventh chord is the sort of de facto chord used in the blues, and considering that the interval of a tritone is what defines the sound of a dominant seventh chord (diminished fifth between the 3rd and the 7th of the chord) then I find it highly unlikely that anyone playing the blues does not play tritones.

Another bizarre statement. :?
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Buleriachk
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by Buleriachk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:43 pm

In my field, there is a distinction between "musicians that play Flamenco" and "Flamencos that play music"

And not only that, I think you're weird too.... :)

stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:47 pm

Buleriachk wrote:And not only that, I think you're weird too....
Being called "weird" I can stand. :mrgreen:

Reading nonsensical statements couched as some kind of wisdom is something I'd rather not suffer. :|
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Buleriachk
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by Buleriachk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:02 pm

I make perfect sense. You're just name-calling from your Wikipedia lookup experiences... :)

In any case, I think it is time for me to unsubscribe from this thread. I leave you in your echo chamber.... :)
Last edited by Buleriachk on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:05 pm

Buleriachk wrote:I make perfect sense.
Sure you do. Put your feet up and take a load off. I think you're getting sleepy.
Buleriachk wrote:You're just name-calling from your Wikipedia lookup experiences... :)
I almost wish that's how I had learned everything. Then I wouldn't be in so much debt. :oops:
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Whizzercone
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by Whizzercone » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:17 pm

One doesn't "need" music theory to do any kind of music, but it is a good tool to have in your tool box.

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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by sporkles » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:27 pm

I can't wait till they announce the winner of this discussion!

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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by Buleriachk » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:01 pm

Lessee now:

Tritone substitution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution

Standard Blues Turnaround

(C -> B7)-> E Blues turnaround (B7 resolves to E)

B is the dominant to E; dominant 7th to tonic in E Major

Tritone substitution (E Major)

Changing the dominant 7th to a "tritone substitution" B7 -> F7

(C -> F7) -> E

(F7 doesn't have a Bb note in it last time I looked, anyway).

But then I could never hear Muddy Waters (or Nino Ricardo either, for that matter) in the standard jazz progression ii-> V -> I, either... (Dm -> G -> C) Even if you stick 7ths in.

stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:08 pm

As someone stated earlier music theory is ultimately a descriptive tool. Musical practice almost always precedes the theory that describes it. I say "almost" because there have been instances, especially during the 20th century, of composers creating their own compositional systems which also form the basis of the basis of the theoretical systems used to describe the music (e.g. Schoenberg and twelve-tone music).

What people call "music theory" should really be called "music fundamentals." That is, the basic concepts and terminology that have been used to describe note-based musical processes for centuries now.

So it's not about "needing" theory. When I hear people say "music theory hurts my creativity so I don't use it" I tell them, well you're actually using it to some degree whether you realize it or not. You're using "theory" simply by calling something you hear a "note."

In some ways it just comes down to how much terminology you know that can describe the things that are happening in the music. From the simplest things like knowing note durations to more complex subjects like modulation.

The reason to learn the established terminology is so that you don't have episodes that have happened on this forum recently where someone is saying something like "Dominant-> Tonic progression" when they actually mean "modulation." Nonsensical statements like that come from a misunderstanding of fundamental music concepts but also have the potential to confuse others when they are presented as having some authority.

I see learning "music theory" as having two main purposes: as a way to codify and understand what's happening in the music in your own mind, and as a way to be able to communicate these things to other musicians.

Since EDM is often a solitary art the first purpose may be the most relevant for the OP. Going back and analyzing something you wrote before you understood the musical concepts behind it can be very rewarding.

"Oh! That's what I was doing! Now I know how to do something similar but with a twist because I've learn more about ________."

Do you "need" it? Probably not.

Does it have the potential to enrich your musical experience and creativity? I believe it does.
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by re:dream » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:13 pm

sporkles wrote:I can't wait till they announce the winner of this discussion!

If we do this right, we can get Ableton_David to ban discussions of religion, politics and music theory. Then we'll be getting somewhere.

stringtapper
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Re: Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:16 pm

Buleriachk wrote:Lessee now:

Tritone substitution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution

Standard Blues Turnaround

(C -> B7)-> E Blues turnaround (B7 resolves to E)

B is the dominant to E; dominant 7th to tonic in E Major

Tritone substitution (E Major)

Changing the dominant 7th to a "tritone substitution" B7 -> F7

(C -> F7) -> E

(F7 doesn't have a Bb note in it last time I looked, anyway).
You are confusing yourself. Slow down and study it all carefully if you truly wish to learn about it.

The definition (from memory and without the aid of your Wiki link) of a tritone substitution is the substitution of a dominant 7th chord by another dominant seventh chord whose root is a tritone away from the root of the original dominant seventh chord.

So the dominant of B is F#, spelled F#-A#-C#-E.

The dominant seventh chord whose root is a tritone away from F#7 is C7, spelled C-E-G-Bb.

You'll notice that the reason these two chords can substitute for each other is that their 3rds and 7ths share an inverse relationship. A# is the 3rd of F#7 which becomes Bb as the 7th of C7; E is the 7th of F37 and becomes the 3rd of C7.

A tritone substitution can happen on any dominant resolution, not only as an alteration of the V chord in a ii-V-I.

So back to your initial example, a C7 moving to B7 is a tritone substitution because the C7 is substituting for an F#7, which is the dominant of B7.
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