Film Music Production Workflow

[Byxx]

Dear Arrangers,

checking out LIVE, I don´t see flexible (multi)track editing at the moment for bigger projects, cross (In, out) -fading multiple tracks at once and a missing sample editor? I see advantages in the loop/improvising recording features for a part of production and creativity, sure.

What is your experience here film music producing and flow wise...? (i.e. Grouping multiple tracks for fade ins and outs is a momentary way, I found - but how to manually x fading with variated lengths for different groups, here is an automated setting with 4ms, sure, but..)
Stereo Grouping for similar FX adjustments (Piano l/r) is a topic here, too.

What are LIVE´s capabilites here in general, that I might not be into yet, some advice or video tuts are welcome
Some of you know, what I am searching here, I guess...Workarounds are also fine to know of a bit more, just in case.


Thx
Best
T

[darkenedsoul]

Hi,

I can't help you with film score stuff (but that would be something I'd be interested in reading more on here if I find any threads). But in regards to sample editor, there isn't a built-in one in Live. Pick your own (Audacity, Sound Forge, et al) and set it in preferences.

Mike

[Byxx]

Cool Mike,

thanks for your infos. That´s a first step. I am very much interested in common editing techniques known from industry standard mixing platform oriented softare.

Where are the pros and cons on Ableton LIVE as I found that LIVE sounds very good plug in and instrument wise. Bigger Projects might need a bit of tweaking multiple tracks. To fix each x fade in and fade out curve seperately would be time consuming, Its the little things, that makes the editing lif(v)e easier in the sum. In my oppinion LIVE has good chances to get more arranger audience, if you would also have dedicated scoring features as well (Score).

Thank you all for any more advice in that realm...

Best
Tim

[droidmike]

Hi LTM

Ableton Live is not a good choice for producing traditional film music, especially if that music has many midi tracks and virtual instruments. Live's midi capabilities are not advanced enough, and you cannot see multiple tracks at the same time in the midi editor. Digital Performer, Cubase, and even Logic are much better choices.

Mike

[jestermgee]

I have done some small film foley, voice and small score stuff tracked to video in Ableton but I have to admit it isn't as easy as it is in Nuendo. Moving stuff around when you have to make micro changes after another edit is sent is painful and the arranger isn't really geared towards that work flow. I make it work since all my hardware is setup for Ableton and I compose music only in ableton but if I had a bigger project to do I would seriously consider using my Nuendo for that.

[Byxx]

Right Guys,

but I feel its a bit of a pity because the improvisational aspect is super and brings new vibes to producing music from a musicians perspective.
Its some small fixes that would help a lot:

Multiple Fade Editing on selected tracks (saves a lot of time and nerves)

sample editor for fine adjustments of start and end of the loop.
So workflow wise for me at the moment LIVE has the feel of a big live looper, which certainly has its thrills, sure!

Hope that its not the only future intention...
It could be a small first emergency list, I guess, to get things going a bit smoother for basic production routines. What´d you think?

Thx
Best
t

[UncleAge]

Post/Prod requires a different toolset from an app that specializes in Live performance. Digital Performer, Logic, Neundo and ProTools handle this much better. I have never used DP for this task but I have seen videos of folk in action and it really gives you a lot of tools to work with.

I've done small v/o projects and some foley stuff and I find Live a bit painful to use for such things. One app that you shouldn't overlook if you are on a pc is Vegas. Vegas and Acid have a lot of overlap. When I was doing most of my stuff on a pc Vegas was my editor of choice once I had everything mixed down to stems.

[jestermgee]

There is nothing stopping you using some video to do some of your work in Live and then export that and mix. I have to agree with most that Live cannot suit every demand out there and in no way would I swan into a Pro Tools forum and ask why it cannot be as creative to operate Live as Ableton. In the same way a hammer cannot cut a piece of wood.

Even if live CAN do some of the functions of film mixing then it's pretty good. I am sure Reason is not able to really dip into that.

[Byxx]

Hey Guys,

it´s not about foreground critcism of things that LIVE does not have compared to a dedicated engineering platform, no need to, true.
I just think of having some basic routines in there would be a small upgrade step even for the creative process. We should be able to edit multiple clips in a smooth way in any case, I feel.
I have tried running Logic and LIVE in rewire mode which works pretty fine, combining both worlds, btw. The only thing I stumbled over is the question in how to record into LIVE as Slave in Rewire Mode (Logic must be Master, no other chance).

So:
Is there a way, ´cause the audio inputs seem to be adressed to Logic...Before starting to figure some around-the-corner routing with auxes and stuff, I hope there is a better method...THX!!!!

Best regards
Tim

[sowhoso]

it looks like this composer does all his work in Live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4LoB5ieUxY

mixing/editing music to picture is another bag of tricks

[Bdumaguina]

I would just like to add my experiences.

With film scoring using Live, I am having difficulty particularly during tempo changes. For example, when you import a video file into Live - so it goes into an Audio Track. And the guide audio along with that video is reflected on that track. I wouldn't warp this guide audio track because this would make the dialogue sound faster or slower than normal when I change tempos. With an unwarped track though, the audio file lengthens or shortens along the timeline anytime a tempo change is made also! This is particularly problematic when editing cues. When you decide to change the tempo of a cue somewhere in the middle of the film material, the whole video shifts! Making all your other cues after that particular are, out of sync!

If anyone has the same experience as me, and has found a work around. I would appreciate it if you could enlighten me.

As mentioned by LTM, the creative workflow of Live is simply that; different. And this uniqueness is what got me hooked on the DAW in the first place. I do also use it for live performances, and I understand that this is one of its primary functions.

[florian_bl]

Hi Biped,

After finishing my first composition for cinema a few days ago, I can't tell you a good solution for your problem. Just a mediocre one.

Automating tempo on the master track is not an option, since all the markers and file start positions afterwards would move. As it happened to you too. I composed in a lot of different sessions with the appropriate tempo. Then I combined the audio files in one big session with the whole movie file. This big "arrangement session" had 120 BPM from beginning to end and no grid enabled. Everything put in position freehand.

It is annoying to work like that, but I couldn't find a better way. So if anybody of you came up with a proper solution for this already, please let us know.

The whole problem is caused by the fact, that everything in Live is locked to BPM. I can't change to "time" as a master, as it is possible in most other DAWs. If events would stick to time instead of bars, the markers and file start positions after a tempo change wouldn't get shifted and working with movies would be way easier.

[Bdumaguina]

Hello Florian,

Ah, it's good to hear someone putting music to film using Live. I've been using Live to score films for a while now. It does it well, IF you stick to ONE tempo. But recently I scored an AVP and needed to change tempos midway for an edit in a certain cue, and low and behold...oh the frustration.

I have thought about this workaround that you suggested. And yes, this in indeed inefficient. I really hope there is a better way.

[chris vine]

yes the tempo thing is a PIA in Live for video work. To the OP, although I have scored short films completely in Live, I would hesitate to do this with a longer film with cue points. When you get sent an edit change, things can get nasty. So I agree with the other posters - use Live as a creative toolbox, throw ideas at the canvas and see what sticks (er, well, that's my approach anyway ) and then export out to a more dedicated DAW for your detailed editing and mixing. I'm doing a 60 min film soon, so I'd better follow my own advice and get another DAW...heh

[Timbeaux]

hey florian, may u have some nice tutorials/links for film score, cause atm iam trying to help a gamedevelopment team making some themes and so on.