Send Return Mechanism Question.

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ZooBooBooZoo
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Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by ZooBooBooZoo » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:06 am

Hi all.

I'm trying to accomplish this:

I have multiple tracks in multiple groups I want to apply a certain FX to.
I'm playing live(as in improvising on stage, not the software name :) ) and I want to be able to choose which track to apply the FX to on the fly, quickly, with my PCR 300 controller(it has knobs, faders, pads etc.)

What's the best way to accomplish this?
I don't want to use a regular send since it will route all my different tracks to a send which acts just like a bus. and I want to have control of each track INDIVIDUALLY.
I need something like a Send/Return which takes the audio from the origin track sends it to a FX which is available to other tracks and sends the audio back to the origin track. is this possible?

Thx, ZBBZ.

TheNobleNemesis
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by TheNobleNemesis » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:41 am

Make an audio effect rack, and have the macro set up to select a chain on the rack to activate.

ZooBooBooZoo
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by ZooBooBooZoo » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:05 am

1) Isn't this like appyling the FX to each track individually but also controlling the parameters for each track individually?

2)Can you explain more specifacally how to setup the macro? I'm kinda new to ableton. I got the audio fx racks on the tracks, and opened the macro controls - what is next?

3) I wish one could use "external audio effect" internally.

thx for the reply mate.

TheNobleNemesis
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by TheNobleNemesis » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:48 am

Well, I have certainly seen it done.. It has something to do with chain selectors.. And yes, it would be indeed, but that's the thing - you can macro a knob or button to turn on and off each one of the different effects at will.
I'm really sorry I couldn't be of further assistance. If I find something on this subject, i'll make sure to let you know!

re:dream
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by re:dream » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:19 pm

You need to be a lot clearer about the exact routing you want

- Why do you not want to use Sends? You can do sends on a per track basis
- Why do you want to send the audio back to the original track? Won't that create feedback?

It is difficult to give advice when I am not sure what your need is but here are some thoughts:

- Simplest is to have a copy of the FX in each track
- Then map the on off button of each device to a different pad on your controller, using the Midi Map switch. You know how to do this?

If you do want to route audio back to the original track (but you do this at risk of feedback) do the following
- create a track and put on an effect (call this track x)
- on that track, set audio in to the track (track y) that you want to get the original sound from
- and set audio to back to that track y.
Be careful to put in a limiter or something on the master bus so that you do not destroy your eadrums and speakers from the howl of feedback that will result 8O

ZooBooBooZoo
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by ZooBooBooZoo » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:52 pm

Hey Finn.

I want to control the FX parameters from a single place. If I copy the FX to each track there's a risk of forgetting to change a certain parameter on all of them in the future.

The reason I don't want to use sends is because each track is routed to different busses and I don't want all the tracks' audio to be routed to the send and from there to a single bus or master, I want the FX applied to each track individually and than being routed according to the track's routing not the send's routing.

Am I being more clear? :)

ZooBooBooZoo
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by ZooBooBooZoo » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:43 am

?

re:dream
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by re:dream » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:43 am

Yikes, that *is* complicated. I am rushing off to work now so I can't really apply my mind. But

(1) Remember that you can set the 'audio from' in any normal track to take audio from the return buses as well

(2) You can also use a compressor as a router. This is a trick I learned just this week from Khazul and TomViolenz Like so:

- in the track to which you want audio to go, put a compressor. Set it on sidechain. Choose the track from which you want audio to come in the input selector for the sidechain. Now set it to listen. Now audio will come through from the selected channel as if you had routed it there

- if you want audio to come through from external sources, or from other tracks sending audio, rack the compressor and create an extra chain. Leave it empty. This ensures that audio coming through from other sources is not blocked by your listening compressor

What baffles me is your need to have the audio sent back to the original channel. I don't know how you are going to do that with more than one audio source *and* keep them separate

One way might be to create a bus with your effect; rack it, link the parameters you want to control to the macros - and then duplicate the effect within the rack. You now have multiple instances of the same effect all controlled by the macros on the rack. This gets you past the problem of mirroring changes in the effect. Then set each rack to the desired audio channel using the compressor listening trick; and then use the same trick to pick up the audio as it comes out of the rack. But it scrambles my brain just to think about it.

P.S - Can you describe the routing you want in more detail? This may even require a diagram 8O


re:dream
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by re:dream » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:22 am

Feedback loops of this nature will very rapidly lead to very high levels of audio that will swamp all other sounds. Even if your inputs are very low and you apply lots of attenuation to the chain.

DO put on a limiter on the tracks in question AND on the master bus before you try this 8O

3dot...
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Re: Send Return Mechanism Question.

Post by 3dot... » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:33 am

if you need the sound of the tracks to be 100% processed .. you'll want to use an insert fx (serial)..
put the fx on individual tracks as it sounds best for you...
and if you need to control them from one place use a mappable MIDI controller or an m4l patch...
there are plenty "macro" style patches around..
http://www.maxforlive.com/


on a different note..
send/return is typically used for parallel processing (in Live.. up to 50% wet/0dB when fx on return is set to 100% wet)...
you can however set the individual track output routing to 'sends only' and the track will be 100% wet on it's way to the master.. in this case the send.. will only act as a volume knob...

also...depending if the send is set to pre/post-fader... the mixer volume fader may or may not have significance on the output to the send..
so in pre-fader mode you can freely control how much of the dry signal is fed to track output...
and how much goes to the send fx

if you're new to this I would also suggest drawing your signal flow on a piece of paper... sometimes it makes sense of it all, as routing in Live is not so visual..

I've always like to think of it as water running through tubes.. channeling to the main water pipe... adjusting the valves controlling flow and pressure as to not break the tubes or overload the main pipe...
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