Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Gringostar
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Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by Gringostar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:15 pm


doghouse
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by doghouse » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:22 pm

Way too anal for me.

Yes, I hear the delay. OK, now you compare a filter in Live against a compressor in Bitwig. Hello? Then you set up a theoretical example in the second vid where you expect to hear no overlap between the filters but you do. OK, I hear it but why would I ever want to do that in the first place?

Guess what....who fecking cares. How about a real musical example where it makes a real difference. Oh, you could always just use low latency plugs where effect isn't so audible. It's easy to pick one with high latency and then bitch about it. How about examples in other DAWs...you do know that Pro Tools had no PDC at all for years yet professionals all over the world used it anyway.

So how does this work in Cubase, Reaper, Reason, Logic, Studio One, Fruity Loops, Acid, Wuzik, etc.?

Tried any hardware processors lately? Wow some of them have dropouts when you switch presets.

Guitars are never perfectly in tune across the neck...after hundreds of years why can't they fix that?

How come stretch tuned pianos sound better than correctly tuned ones?

Life is way too short to worry about this sort of crap.

jlgrimes
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by jlgrimes » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:09 pm

doghouse wrote: So how does this work in Cubase, Reaper, Reason, Logic, Studio One, Fruity Loops, Acid, Wuzik, etc.?
Most DAWS now have full PDC. I think Reason is the only one on the list which doesn't have it.

Sonar was the first program that has full PDC. Others slowly followed.

10 years ago very few DAWS had full PDC. 10 years later most DAWS have it. I think Ableton always managed to slide through by implementing it partially. But competition is getting stiffer.


I don't think anything is anal about the test. It is just showing flaws in Abletons technology. While many people never experience issues (using light plug-ins or using little automation), some do and have to find effective workarounds.

Hermanus
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by Hermanus » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:15 pm

they surely got plenty of new things for live 10... far far away

yur2die4
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:19 pm

Okay. So my main curiosity, as I have no experience with the concepts of PDC.

Is it a type of thing where it is essential for production, but at the same time if you were doing live recordings, would introduce some frustrating latencies?

I just wonder if that is a factor which affects Ableton's decision on how exactly to approach the problem. Would they simply need a check option in the drop down menu to turn PDC implementation off and on? Is one able to flexibly improvise live recording ideas in other DAWs while PDC is correctly being applied?

kb420
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by kb420 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:47 pm

jlgrimes wrote:I don't think anything is anal about the test. It is just showing flaws in Abletons technology. While many people never experience issues (using light plug-ins or using little automation), some do and have to find effective workarounds.
It's been brought up so much here on the forums that I don't know why Ableton hasn't already fixed the problem. It makes me wonder if there is something inherently wrong with Live's code that makes it a problematic fix.
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

jlgrimes
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by jlgrimes » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:44 pm

kb420 wrote: It's been brought up so much here on the forums that I don't know why Ableton hasn't already fixed the problem. It makes me wonder if there is something inherently wrong with Live's code that makes it a problematic fix.
I guess that it requires a full audio engine rewrite. To fix it Ableton would probably have to break a lot of their code.

Who knows though. I'm guessing that they are working on it. PDC was probably one of the most requested things in the last few years.

Many people thought we wouldn't get Session View Automation and we did.

Now that Bitwig is out, I think that fully implemented PDC is the biggest black eye Ableton has.

The other things are more trivial IMO.

yur2die4
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:59 pm

I really think it has a lot to do with them trying to decide on how the program will function at its core. It is producers vs live musicians in this arena. I don't entirely know what kinds of sacrifices would have to be made. How does BW handle live audio??

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:00 pm

Thanks for the video. Just ran the test my self, and yeah Live doesn't compare to Bitwig with this, DP8 also has no issues, like Logic and the rest of the old school DAWs I'm assuming.

If people are wondering what the use of this is, this would be a really good reason not to do your mix downs in Live. This is exactly why people would complain that Live sounds 'muddy' etc. I bet.

Still not a deal breaker for me, but chalk one up to Bitwig.

kb420
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by kb420 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:03 pm

yur2die4 wrote:I really think it has a lot to do with them trying to decide on how the program will function at its core. It is producers vs live musicians in this arena. I don't entirely know what kinds of sacrifices would have to be made. How does BW handle live audio??
I'm not sure how BW handle's live audio, but there was a thread over at KVR in which the OP stated that BW's PDC behaved exactly the way the Live's did. Then, a few days later, Bitwig released a bug fix which pretty much eliminated the problem. Can it really be that difficult for Ableton to fix the problem? Isn't Bitwig made up of a bunch of former Ableton employees anyway?
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:05 pm

kb420 wrote:
yur2die4 wrote:I really think it has a lot to do with them trying to decide on how the program will function at its core. It is producers vs live musicians in this arena. I don't entirely know what kinds of sacrifices would have to be made. How does BW handle live audio??
I'm not sure how BW handle's live audio, but there was a thread over at KVR in which the OP stated that BW's PDC behaved exactly the way the Live's did. Then, a few days later, Bitwig released a bug fix which pretty much eliminated the problem. Can it really be that difficult for Ableton to fix the problem? Isn't Bitwig made up of a bunch of former Ableton employees anyway?
Well in the case of Bitwig it was a bug very obviously, and IMO in the case of Ableton Live, it requires more than a bug fix. :?

We can only speculate.

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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:17 pm

I guess I'll have to wait and see how people use Bitwig in live situations.

So far I've mostly only seen editing features. Which is great when taking Live's clip view approach and giving it lots of new functions.

I just wonder how it handles live synthesis, clip recording, looping, multi-audio input and fx processing. Live routing etc etc.

The reason I bring this up in this thread specifically is my curiosity as to whether or not 'fixing' PDC will hurt a software's live capabilities. If not, then you have to wonder what other factors are slowing Ableton down.

kb420
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by kb420 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:24 pm

yur2die4 wrote:The reason I bring this up in this thread specifically is my curiosity as to whether or not 'fixing' PDC will hurt a software's live capabilities. If not, then you have to wonder what other factors are slowing Ableton down.
I agree. There must be more going on than Ableton cares for people to know. This has been going on for far too long.
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

Machinesworking
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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:25 pm

yur2die4 wrote:I guess I'll have to wait and see how people use Bitwig in live situations.

So far I've mostly only seen editing features. Which is great when taking Live's clip view approach and giving it lots of new functions.

I just wonder how it handles live synthesis, clip recording, looping, multi-audio input and fx processing. Live routing etc etc.

The reason I bring this up in this thread specifically is my curiosity as to whether or not 'fixing' PDC will hurt a software's live capabilities. If not, then you have to wonder what other factors are slowing Ableton down.
I'll play around with the demo in a little bit. The Launchpad is in the list of supported devices so live performance with clips should be easy, haven't tested it yet.

Like i've mentioned before though, all this comes at a cost, Bitiwig is way more CPU piggish than Live, about 70-75% of what Live can do, plenty of people at KVR have backed that up.

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Re: Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:28 pm

Well. If we can't rule out the influence of proper PDC implementation on live performance, then we can't necessarily assume it is for other reasons yet :P


A Launchpad can be decent for doing tests. As long as we are talking about full on testing. Adding and removing audio and midi devices while it is playing. Recording new midi patterns in session view while audio and midi clips are already playing. Recording audio in session view.

Session View is sort of Live's baby. If PDC were to kill that, there would a lot less to set Live apart from its competitors. I mean, look at the warping. The quality of stretching audio leaves a bit to be desired in Live, but it works fast and with extreme CPU efficiency in contrast to its competitors. In some situations people are willing to accept that compromise. Other people, of course having seen far better audio stretching functionality in other DAWs are very dissatisfied with Live for that.

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