Bitwig vs Ableton - PDC Test (Video)

[studiojohnny]

If you rewire Live through another DAW that does have PDC does that fix the problem? Can anyone test/verify this? (e.g. Live -> ProTools)

[Angstrom]

It's worth restating that Live does have PDC, the audio is compensated for latency. What is not compensated is events, automation, those things.

I see people asking for "PDC", and it's odd, it's like asking for "audio". It's not correct - as Live already has PDC , so bad phrasing merely confuses the issue, and the users. The problem is not audio latency calculation and offsetting, it's the representation, and synchrony of events, in relation to the correctly synced audio.

Lets all visit ProTools past, for a parallel, the year ... Is 2004 !

http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_U ... 2Fen333939

[TTOZ]

If you rewire Live through another DAW that does have PDC does that fix the problem? Can anyone test/verify this? (e.g. Live -> ProTools)

yes you can feed your live stems and process effects in the rewire master and also automation of plugins you use in the master rewire host and all will be in sync but this presents another issue... no vst effects available in live at ALL in that case, but the biggest problem is rewire in any host is all processed on one core, it's just the way it works.

[eyeknow]

[re:dream]

For that reason, I am personally not bothered at all about PDC. I just don't need it, and (if I understand it correctly) Live's own approach to timing is very much linked to their approach to latency in a performance situation.

This is a misunderstanding of the problem.It is not in any way a benefit to live performers, or some sort of "DAW thing". The issue stated very simply is :

(...)

Can you hear this?
Do you think that out of time effects are good for a live performer? Do you think this is just a DAW thing?

Consider what would happen if you were using a more complex set, perhaps using a few Max4Live synced effects or VST instruments, a BeatRepeat, a glitch plugin. Consider what layers of this effect might sound like.

Consider the variety of automation and various timing events affected by this.

Hopefully this clarifies the issue.

OK, I finally had the time to look at the example - life 's been busy.

Am I imagining it or are you sounding a bit sarcastic or exasperated?

Anyway, I must say I think you misunderstood me.

I think my understanding of the PDC issue was broadly in line with your explanation, though you put it across really clearly and usefully (thanks!) ... and I have come across the issue myself - e.g. when automating a hp filter on a track with Zebra.

It did not particularly bother me, because I just adjusted the automation points to the places where they acted as I wanted them to.

It's clearly not a great situation and we need a fix. But as you point out, it's a tricky issue.

[Angstrom]

I NEVER GET EXASPERATED !!!!!
NEVEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR

er, probably, I can't remember. It was Saturday and I was probably partly drunk!

[fx23]

AT Last a valid 'AUDIO ENGINE' compare ^^

[frejahel]

Thanks to the people who have provided useful information in this thread.

A newbie question:

How would I actually go about to try and work around this (apart from avoiding high latency plugins in front of time sensitive material, or by ear draw in new automation)? Is there a way to find out the exact amount of total latency and then adjust the automation by this amount, or is there another hands on solution that works well until this issue is fixed?

Thank you.

[fx23]

I ve made this thread years ago, and the issue was know years even before, you can have a look herefrejahel:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=160107

btw thats known fact since L5.. so just a pic for fun:

[frejahel]

Thank you! So from what I've been reading, there are things to avoid basically to make matters less bad, and then use your ears, and perhaps analyze the sound for phasing issues with an oscilloscope (and then with trial and error nudge the audio)...

Do I understand it correctly that Live's own effects are latency free, but will cause latencies that are of the set audio buffer? So all effects will add up basically with a certain latency no matter where in the signal path they are?

[Angstrom]

No, lots of devices cause audio latency naturally, for example ableton's compressor. - for almost all. Cases Ableton compensates automatically almost all of the time.

The issue is with automation, and events which act upon parameters. When automation acts upon compensated audio, the automation is not compensated, so there is a lack of synchrony.

So the audio is all compensated, the automation and events for that audio are not. Regardless of who made the plugin, or device, etc.

[frejahel]

No, lots of devices cause audio latency naturally, for example ableton's compressor. - for almost all. Cases Ableton compensates automatically almost all of the time.

The issue is with automation, and events which act upon parameters. When automation acts upon compensated audio, the automation is not compensated, so there is a lack of synchrony.

So the audio is all compensated, the automation and events for that audio are not. Regardless of who made the plugin, or device, etc.

Thanks to your previous very informative messages I (think I) understand the nature of the problem. I just wanted to get a grasp of how much the automation will be off, by trying to estimate the latency of the plugins (a linear EQ will induce delay for instance).

Non-latency plugins will be off by the audio buffer, right? and it doesn't matter where the plugins are in the signal path (they will all add up together)?

[TTOZ]

Non-latency plugins will be off by the audio buffer, right? and it doesn't matter where the plugins are in the signal path (they will all add up together)?

correct, except for factory devices. it's all very confusing.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6#p5371186

Here is my summary post at kvr of all possible pdc issues and solutions. Personally, if every effect didn't add the interface latency on top of any other present latency, i'd just use zero latency or very low latency effects and be happy with live.

Even though there are a couple of vocal members who don't care about PDC, for everyone of them there are 100 that do, so I just don't understand why Ableton won't devote resources to simply fixing it as priority one (that and automation snap and layered midi editing) Are they afraid of making their daw that perfect that everyone would be happy? LOL!

[frejahel]

correct, except for factory devices. it's all very confusing.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6#p5371186

Thank you! That clears up a lot for me. I didn't see this message of yours previously, even if you are one of my favourite posters on KVR (informative and colourful - your Bitwig posts are also a very nice change from the rest). This is a bit of a nightmare indeed :/, and renders all the things Live does wonderfully, pretty much worthless for me. Fortunately I also have a license for Studio One, although I wish I had gone for Cubase instead of Live now, especially since I know Cubase inside out.

Even if I'm very late to this nightmare, I didn't notice this problem when I demoed Live. Buying Suite 9, I only sensed something being off after doing more serious work. I went to various forums to read up... Can't believe such a core functionality hasn't been resolved a long time ago, and even more unbelievable; how can there be people who voice their support of Live despite these PDC automation issues .

Again, thanks for the reply. So 'flattening' and/or 'clip automation' it is, for working in Live... or using Live as a sketch board and do the serious work in Studio One.

[TTOZ]

I keep on thinking to myself it could be done without a rewrite, but after re reading my post from back then that i just linked, and considering it has latency for every vst effect, it probably really is buried so deep in the code the entire audio engine would need an overhaul. However, I keep wondering.. what if they add a simple feature where whatever the delay is on a specific track, that automation can be nudged with a single parameter box to be in time.. that is some sort of temporary solution that they could provide.. after all, since it is doing delay compensation for everything but automation, the basis for this idea is already completely there already under the hood.
Regarding Bitshit, it's delay comp really is not all that either.. yes things are audibly in time, with the one advantage it has over live in that it also does automation as well, but every other limitation of live is present in bitwig as well regarding visual issues and monitoring latency issues (in fact, ableton has one up there as you can disable pdc on the armed track with reduced latency monitoring checkbox)..

This is why i am so hard on it.. they had all this time, and all the criticism for so many years regarding live's pdc, and they had the chance to do it properly like studio one/cubase/pt/sonar etc, and they do a half baked effort which is equal to live +automation sync. For that extra bit of time saving, when bitwig is such an inferior program in so many other ways, personally i'd just keep live and do the calculations with a calculator and nudge the automation manually where needed for now.