VST's that emulate analog synths

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by login » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:27 am

Doanload the demo of Diva and the others, amny of them have demos.

DIva is my favorite.

Charles Tryck
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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by Charles Tryck » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:32 am

kitekrazy wrote:They all imitate analog synths. When it comes to that I don't see how one is better than the other.
Then, theoretically, Ableton's in house analog synth should be all I need right?


There has to be a difference when a VST like Diva is a powerhouse on CPU compared to other VST analog imitators. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in the details of why, but I would speculate it has something to do with mathematical algorithms becoming more detailed as the digital recreations of sound waves get closer to the same timbre of their acoustic counterparts. Could it also be the quality of the coding, as was pointed out that the recent updates of Diva have enabled a more efficient VST?

There could just as easily be a bubble on VST programs as many speculate there is over EDM, but even then, there are products that outshine others. I am definately looking to get all I can out of the first VST I get. So far, I really am liking this gforce minimonsta VST. I haven't tried U-He's just yet.

Does anyone have any insight on these questions? Or could really lay down some info. that distinguishes these particular analog emulating VST's, especially the ones with identical parameters?


EDIT
deva wrote:
IMO Diva captures the tonal character of the Minimoog better. It is a distinctly better emulation soundwise. Diva is also having modules based on other analog synths as well. The sound quality is exceptional. Diva uses more cpu and you get something for the cpu use. You have to try the demo and see if that is a worthwhile trade for you.
Thanks! I found this article from '07 on this forum where someone asked: Arturia vs Gforce:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63344

Since then, technology has evolved... Would you say that the higher CPU usage from Diva is correlating to a higher quality sound and a more developed instrument than the other VST analog imitators (like the gforce minimonsta)? I'm seeing the Diva as being a new generation of digital emulation, or this perspective flawed?

deva
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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by deva » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:08 am

Charles Tryck wrote: I'm seeing the Diva as being a new generation of digital emulation, or this perspective flawed?
There is no question Diva is an advancement. The thing is, some people simply don't care as they were happy enough with what was there before and value the lower cpu use more. That is up to each person. Different people have different priorities.

I personally don't care that much if a particular emulation exactly 1:1 mimics the analog synth it is an emulation of. What I value is if it better captures the essential character. Analog synths have a kind of coherent vitality and for me, Diva has that. Especially when pushed with Filter FM, Cross Modulation, Ring Mod, High Resonance and/or lots of modulation, Diva delivers.

I enjoy exploring the sonic edge. Some people are perfectly happy with any old 2osc subtractive with a decent filter. Different people have different interests. Try the demo, and decide what you like...

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by login » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:27 am

Just download the demos and listen for yourself, for me IF you want really ANALOG sounding synth then there is a big difference between Diva and Live's Analog, night and day.

But it comes with the price of CPU usage, for example with analog you could 20 instances and going pretty relaxed on cpu consupmtion, with DIVA 3 or 4 instances will crush your cpu, even on draft mode.

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by Sage » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:18 am

I grew up around analogue synths, software is always very different, even samples of the original hardware quickly loses the charm of the hardware as they are very much instrument in their own right. Bit like saying to a guitarist you can make any guitar sound like a Strat, but however much that is true, it will never feel the same.

In all honesty, any synth is a good synth, but personally, do tend to find the most recommended hardware and software synths to leave me bored (I hate Moogs, so dull and uninspiring).

Charles Tryck
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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by Charles Tryck » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:38 am

I'm getting a more refined understanding of my interest, I think:

I love mistakes, and I'm tasking myself with designing my own unique sounds with VST's - with a keen interest towards deliberately detuning the cleanliness of digital sounds. If the beauty of the analog sub-synth is in it's uniqueness, am I wrong in speculating this uniqueness may be a result of the atmosphere and the fluctuations of power into the instrument shaping the timbre into something unique?

So the sounds of the VST never detunes. My presets in Diva are the exact same as anyone else who downloads it, and always will be... BORING. Outside of studying up on subtractive synthesis, is there anyone out there with a keen interest in defacing digital signals, within Diva or any other sub synth, that has any links or advice on the topic of virtual subtractive synthesis and emulating organic sound waves?

Bare with me I'm thinking out loud some more:

if the unstable and random variables are (I would argue) what give value to the analog synth, couldn't this also be programmed into a VST? And if U-He has attempted this, is there anyone who has taken this train of thought further?

This U-He Diva is good. I may go plague the U-He forums for tips on lessening CPU load, amongst other things. For some reason, enabling multi-core mode in Diva jacked the CPU usage in Live higher than it was before it was on 0_o

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:50 am

Sage wrote: (I hate Moogs, so dull and uninspiring).
I'm glad the rest of the world doesn't agree with you.

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by ezelkow1 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:08 am

Charles Tryck wrote: if the unstable and random variables are (I would argue) what give value to the analog synth, couldn't this also be programmed into a VST? And if U-He has attempted this, is there anyone who has taken this train of thought further?
yes, many (well maybe not as far as diva since once you dig in it already goes pretty far). The options are already in diva, go to the trimmers panel. Diva is not alone in this, there are plenty of synths that can inject randomness into their tuning, cutoffs, etc, all the things that analogs do. Its quite why in a blind test most analog purists fail, because at this point the only real difference is how they fell to the musician when they are playing it, not in the end sound result. So if you could have a midi keyboard that gave the musician the same feeling of playing an analog would there really be a difference?

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by Charles Tryck » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:36 am

ezelkow1 wrote:
yes, many (well maybe not as far as diva since once you dig in it already goes pretty far). The options are already in diva, go to the trimmers panel. Diva is not alone in this, there are plenty of synths that can inject randomness into their tuning, cutoffs, etc, all the things that analogs do. Its quite why in a blind test most analog purists fail, because at this point the only real difference is how they fell to the musician when they are playing it, not in the end sound result. So if you could have a midi keyboard that gave the musician the same feeling of playing an analog would there really be a difference?
1). Are you saying that:
If the timbre of an instrument running Diva, tweaked to be as close to emulating a particular analog synth sound as possible, with all the controlled variables, in the right hands, would trump most listeners who were tasked with discerning one from the other?

2) I haven't played any analog synths like the minimoog V, but I would assume the action is un-weighted... Just like any other run of the mill midi controller ;)

If #1^^^) is true, this really changes a lot of what I believed in VSTs. I really was of the mindset that those who knew the most about the fundamental architecture of a given plugin were the most masterful users of them. I met Michal Menert a month ago, he told me half the time he has no idea what the hell he's doing in Ableton. Lol.


Has a test like the hypothetical one I voiced above been performed or documented with Diva or other popular analog emulating VST's?

Back to the noob Ableton stuff:

I'm still demoing Diva, and just threw together 8 bars of:

1) a polyphonic synth doin some triads (Cm -> Gm 1st inversion) in Diva mode
2) a monophonic deep sub in Diva mode
3) and a synth lead... Like the heavy delayed one in Pink Floyd's "Any Colour You Like" in Divine. Mode

My CPU useage was around like upper 30s. I had them all in multi-core. Things sounded.... Well.' Let's say my recorded synth solo went for 2 minutes.

I'm using my soundcard in my MacBook, and my computer was hot before I stopped eargasming. Would getting an external soundcard be a good idea, would it help with running a plugin like Diva?

And, damn. I mean just after an hour, my head is hurting with the potential in just composing with a pad, a bass synth and a lead synth. I think I spoke too soon about quality before even trying Diva. I thnknI'm getting high just thinking about it..

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by ezelkow1 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:40 pm

Yea the majority can't tell the difference. The only issue is that these are usually small sample sizes because once one of these blind tests are posted either many people back down or just refuse to do the test saying its unfair in some way or another. Of those that do respond most never can tell which is which or express a real preference for one over the other

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by Sage » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:06 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Sage wrote: (I hate Moogs, so dull and uninspiring).
I'm glad the rest of the world doesn't agree with you.
I will forever have the memory of being about 15 in Sound Control messing around with the synths in there, started fiddling with a Moog Voyager they had and wasn't blown away by it or even remotely impressed by it, then saw the price tag… At that point I'd have had no real appreciation for different synth brands, so had no preconceptions before using it. Playing the various Phattys these days, its that same feeling of "meh" every time.

Its a lot of money for not a lot in reality and if that makes people happy, then all the power to them.
ezelkow1 wrote:Yea the majority can't tell the difference. The only issue is that these are usually small sample sizes because once one of these blind tests are posted either many people back down or just refuse to do the test saying its unfair in some way or another. Of those that do respond most never can tell which is which or express a real preference for one over the other
How are these tests run?

It typical use, can't imagine the majority can't tell, but push things to extremes, there can be noticeable differences. With emulations of hardware effects (The only one I have the same hardware and VST is Artsacoustic Big Rock and a EHX Small Stone from the late 70's), in typical use, it is very difficult to tell, but run white noise through both, you can hear a difference, the hardware messes with the high end, the software doesn't do that.

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by superistic » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:11 am

Charles Tryck wrote:Hey, I'm relatively new with Ableton, and am incredibly drawn towards analog synths.

Has anyone spent a lot of time with the Ableton Analog synth and could give give me some feedback on how it compares to other virtual synths designed to emulate analog synths?

I've been playing around with Arturia's iMini app, which emulates their minimoog V, and absolutely love it. Arturia has a minimoog VST, has anyone used it at all? I do understand there is something lost in the transition to digital... As analog and digital are two separate beasts, but I cannot afford a minimoog V. I've also heard about Monark from NI, amongst others. I'm sure there are multiple synths that can perform the same thing, but if there is any particular VST that does a pretty good job at capturing the analog synth textures, or has the capability of being tweaked to closely resemble the tonal quality of analog synths, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks!
TAL-U-NO-LX
TAL-BassLine-101

http://kunz.corrupt.ch/Products

UltimateOutsider
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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by UltimateOutsider » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:13 am

Charles Tryck wrote:1). Are you saying that:
If the timbre of an instrument running Diva, tweaked to be as close to emulating a particular analog synth sound as possible, with all the controlled variables, in the right hands, would trump most listeners who were tasked with discerning one from the other?
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. No one recreationally listens to a single synth, in isolation, without effects or processing. It's always going to be in a mix, always going to be processed, and almost always going to have some kind of external effects/modulation. Any of those magical subtleties that so many anti-emulation folks talk about are lost in most actual produced tracks. If you've got a softsynth or sample library that's close enough, that's all you need in most cases.

Diva is a pretty interesting synth in that it's not a strict "moog clone" or a "juno emulator" or whatever- it actually gives you a ton of different components- a filter emulation from X, an oscillator emulation from Y, etc, and lets you build your own instrument using the best parts of all these other historical synths.

It comes at a HUGE processing cost. (I cannot use it effectively without enabling the multi-core mode. Similar situation with D16 LuSH-101.) Diva is also not exactly a simple synth to use. There are many options, and it does some things differently from almost any other synth. You really have to spend some time reading the manual and exploring the options to get the most out of it. Great synth, but if you're just getting started with this stuff, I'd go for something more straightforward (like the TAL synths superistic just mentioned)- although exact recommendations depend on which synths you're looking to emulate.

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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by login » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:45 am

[quote="Sag

I will forever have the memory of being about 15 in Sound Control messing around with the synths in there, started fiddling with a Moog Voyager they had and wasn't blown away by it or even remotely impressed by it, then saw the price tag… At that point I'd have had no real appreciation for different synth brands, so had no preconceptions before using it. Playing the various Phattys these days, its that same feeling of "meh" every time.

Its a lot of money for not a lot in reality and if that makes people happy, then all the power to them.[/quote]

Pretty much all hardware is expensive and I will agree that fir production doesnt make any difference.

But for playing and oerforming as a band or live act they are so enjoyable.

roringtonsmithe
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Re: VST's that emulate analog synths

Post by roringtonsmithe » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:07 am

superistic wrote:
TAL-U-NO-LX
TAL-BassLine-101

http://kunz.corrupt.ch/Products
Was going to post the same.
Love the U-NO-LX. So immediate and inspiring. Oh, and cheap! :D

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