What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
TTOZ
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by TTOZ » Thu May 22, 2014 7:32 pm

I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

regretfullySaid
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by regretfullySaid » Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm

Maybe Ableton thought of Live 9 as a 'transitionary host', to test user feedback before doing a major overhaul with Live 10, that is to assume since it's a 10th version it's the perfect time to do a major overhaul. Maybe they didn't do the 're-write' we thought they needed for curved automation, or maybe it was just partial.
also, if they already had knowledge of Bitwig when phasing out version 8, that could be another excuse to do some testing with 9 while waiting to see how Bitwig pans out.
I'm just thinking maybe 9 was never thought of as the big update as we all figured, but instead a sandbox for figuring out what to do with the actual big update of 'Live X'.
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TTOZ
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by TTOZ » Thu May 22, 2014 8:18 pm

FWIW, to fix automation timing with PDC, live does not need a rewrite. A rewrite is only needed if they want to fix the playhead being in time with very latent effects.

They need to *add* code to tell the automation to shift by the track latency. The rewrite thing is just a myth. They could *add* a box showing the tracks latency and an automation nudge parameter even.. that does not move the automation visually, so everything can still be drawn where you want it to strike, then just nudged the amount of ms needed. It could be done..

If they want to overhaul the audio engine from the ground up, different story. The thing is, the engine is good, performance is good, and it's pretty much gapless.. so... wouldn't want them to do anything drastic there personally.
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Tarekith
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by Tarekith » Thu May 22, 2014 8:36 pm

I feel pretty confident Ableton knows it's an issue for some people and will fix it sooner rather later.

H20nly
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 22, 2014 9:10 pm

i don't know... it rarely gets mentioned and if they've been busy working on the Retina display issue they may have missed any posts about it entirely. it's a good thing we have this thread.

Machinesworking
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri May 23, 2014 7:32 am

My guess is if Bitwig actually gets it right in an update, instead of partially right like it is now, then Ableton will divert resources to the problem.
I think it's obvious that it's more time consuming than most people think to write it in, otherwise it would have happened by now. It's been an issue for end users for quite some time, but there is only so many hours in a day, and Push sells to new users; new users don't know or care about automation PDC. I don't think this because I think Ableton are Machiavellian, but because to stay afloat the bottom line has to be a concern.
So again, if Bitwig does it 'right', then Ableton will be in a situation where customers will drop them, therefore they will take the time to do it.

I'm also optimistic about it as well though, because they eventually allowed plug ins to write clip automation from controllers etc. Something they flatly stated was a HUGE task for them a few years back.

dazzer
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by dazzer » Fri May 23, 2014 11:08 am

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TTOZ
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by TTOZ » Sun May 25, 2014 5:07 pm

Machinesworking wrote:My guess is if Bitwig actually gets it right in an update, instead of partially right like it is now, then Ableton will divert resources to the problem.
I think it's obvious that it's more time consuming than most people think to write it in, otherwise it would have happened by now. It's been an issue for end users for quite some time, but there is only so many hours in a day, and Push sells to new users; new users don't know or care about automation PDC. I don't think this because I think Ableton are Machiavellian, but because to stay afloat the bottom line has to be a concern.
So again, if Bitwig does it 'right', then Ableton will be in a situation where customers will drop them, therefore they will take the time to do it.

I'm also optimistic about it as well though, because they eventually allowed plug ins to write clip automation from controllers etc. Something they flatly stated was a HUGE task for them a few years back.

Bitwig's coders were probably who made live's pcd the mess it is.. since bitwig appeared with similar problems.. bitwig is the only host i actually know of that has no low latency monitoring mode when using latent effects, so i actually prefer live's PDC to bitwig's anyway, as once you have used effects with latency in bitwig, it is a total PITA to work around. AND, just like live the playhead is out of time completely with the audio anyway. The only difference is that automation is in time. That is it.
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Machinesworking
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by Machinesworking » Sun May 25, 2014 7:35 pm

TTOZ wrote: The only difference is that automation is in time. That is it.
That's a pretty big difference though would you not say?

Point remains, Ableton have at this point only their pride and 'social contract' to the customer as reasons to spend what's obviously a good amount of man hours devoted to fixing PDC on automation. If some company like Bitwig who are in the same subset of DAWs performance sequencer wise etc. get it right eventually, then Ableton will be forced more or less to also devote man hours to it.

They did eventually implement real time clip automation, so it's very likely they get PDC automation right.

TTOZ
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by TTOZ » Mon May 26, 2014 7:45 pm

It's a big difference yes, granted, but bitwig's pdc sucks. I am NOT saying this to have another anti bitwig rant, promise, but honestly besides ableton i couldn't think of a worse implemented method.

The low latency monitoring is a MASSIVE thing.

Put an effect in bitwig on track 2 with latency, not in the path of track 1 at all, yet track 1's monitoring and vsti realtime latency is affected. Just an example.

Have 20 latent effects in bitwig, and every time you arm ANY track ANYWHERE, you will need to go and remove every single one of those plugins manually one by one (bypassing doesn't work!) to use you're audio cards set buffer again.

So as big as the automation thing is, and it is, to me that's even bigger, so bitwig gets the crown for worst implementation of dealing with PDC of any host currently today.

I told them this, in a very thorough, polite and explanatory manner, and his response confirmed that was intended behaviour and was basically " bad luck bye". Maybe you now know why I have an anti bitwig attitude.

The only other host I know of that has a visual problem with PDC is logic, when using very latent effects on busses. BUT, one button and they are all bypassed to record, and automation etc is still 100% in time. It's easy to work around and only visual, not aural.

Cubase and S1 get the crown for best implementation overall, but S1 lacks a low latency bypass button. That said, you could have 5 seconds worth of latent effects in S1, and as long as they are not directly in the path of the monitored track, the monitoring latency is not affected (same with PT, Logic, Cubase). Sonar has a bypass button also to disable latent effects when recording.

No one else seems to have complained about this to bitwig but me, so perhaps I am the mad one, to want to be able to bypass latent effects when recording. LOL.
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Machinesworking
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by Machinesworking » Mon May 26, 2014 9:22 pm

No it makes sense, Logic gets around this by having a lower internal buffer for record armed tracks than their PDC allows for unarmed tracks. So you get a lower latency on tracks you're recording into. Pre-rendering does the same thing in DP8, in that unless I'm throwing heavy mastering plug ins on the Master fader, I can have a ridiculously low buffer. Live of course allows you to set the buffer for the active plug ins lower.

Surprised there's nothing at all in place in Bitwig? They either have to be working on that behind the scenes or they're headed down a pretty rough road when people start using it to perform with.

eyeknow
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by eyeknow » Tue May 27, 2014 7:08 am

Or not. It's entirely possible (though I don't know for certain) that they won't ever correct it.

This is a subject that is both interesting, but painful. CLEARLY, the problem exists, but what will they do?

You've got me. I guess I'm in the not hopeful camp. Though I have suspicions of it rearing it's ugly head, I don't experience it much compared to others. I'm a simple "live" user. BUT, I admit, that when I hear some of the stories of others, I wonder what they can/will/would do.

At least live works 99% of the time for me. I guess that if push (no pun) came to shove I can always render the tracks in live and import them to one of the other hosts I have (namely studio one)

Machinesworking
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by Machinesworking » Tue May 27, 2014 7:50 am

^^^ Well they did fix Clip automation writing. That, was something a lost of us just thought was an inherent dead end they mistakenly built into the software, so it is possible. It's just one of those things though, we won't know until they do it.


TTOZ
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Re: What is your honest feel on our chances to have PDC fixed?

Post by TTOZ » Tue May 27, 2014 7:54 pm

Machinesworking wrote:No it makes sense, Logic gets around this by having a lower internal buffer for record armed tracks than their PDC allows for unarmed tracks. So you get a lower latency on tracks you're recording into. Pre-rendering does the same thing in DP8, in that unless I'm throwing heavy mastering plug ins on the Master fader, I can have a ridiculously low buffer. Live of course allows you to set the buffer for the active plug ins lower.

Surprised there's nothing at all in place in Bitwig? They either have to be working on that behind the scenes or they're headed down a pretty rough road when people start using it to perform with.

I fully understand how logic's (and samplitude, and pro tools, and cubase) hybrid buffers work, but this is unrelated as logic worked this way even before it introduced pdc. I am talking about plugins with latency not affecting signals they are not in the path of.

Even with logic's hybrid buffer, if i decide to put a linear phase EQ on the master buss or on the track that is record armed (i.e using logic's realtime, not high latency, buffer), Logic will suffer from the same monitoring latency as the latent effect. Apple added a button one can press to disable latent effects altogether if the latency is too high, so one can record, then re press the button.

S1 has no hybrid buffers and the path that does not have latent plugins on it is not affected in any way when monitoring. Same with Cubase pre asio guard, (and cubase still had a button to bypass all latent effects in one go anyway which is why apple added one, to compete). Live has no cheat buffers as such, and has a low latency monitor mode which as you know activates when record armed. Correct, nothing is in place for this in bitwig whatsoever.. and I do hope you realise how serious it is, because there is no other host on the planet, literally, that works this way. I wonder if this is why they have gone quiet, to fix it, after they realised how bad it is.
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