KinTools 0.2 (WinXP, MacX): Moving sound with LIVE (ReWire)

huts · Post by **huts** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:18 am

KinTool is a tool that allows the sound to move in a MULTIPHONIC SONORIC SPACE
A new version of KinTools 0.2.0 for Macintosh OS X and Windows XP.
We have changed the interface completely and we have introduced new characteristics that make of KinTools an indispensable tool to work the sound in the space.

New Features:

• First public release in Windows XP.
• New Interface.
• New Arrangement.
• New windows to write events: Boxes.
• New Random: Trigger events randomy.

Download the application for FREE and create 5.1 moving music.

www.kineticsoundsystem.com

subbasshead · Post by **subbasshead** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:24 am

u know, to me KinTool is VERY interesting
but I simply never use REWIRE out for anything
because it means losing the use of VST plugs in LIVE....

and while Live 5 will let me freeze all my VST plugs
it would still mean that i cant make music & mix
in 5.1 at the same time - i'd basically have to finish
writing, freeze it, then start mixing it in 5.1.....
which doesnt bake my cake, cos as soon as I start
panning & balancing I might (ie probably will) want to
start changing some of the VST stuff...

whats your feeling Huts?
could you describe a typical workflow that you use
for making and mixing music in 5.1 using
Live and kinTools?

do you have some 5.1 mixes we could check out?
and do you not use VST plugs?

As it stands I mix in quad within LIVE by using auxiliarys
and direct outputs but my control of panning/movement options
are limited...

But

I would rather limit the quad panning than have to limit the VST
elements that contribute a LOT to writing & the sound of my music
i'd appreciate your insights, especially bearing in mind that LIVE 5
is basically still 2.0 in terms of routing (altho dont get me wrong
ableton, i am in awe of what you have created)

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:28 pm

subbasshead wrote:u know, to me KinTool is VERY interesting
but I simply never use REWIRE out for anything
because it means losing the use of VST plugs in LIVE....

and while Live 5 will let me freeze all my VST plugs
it would still mean that i cant make music & mix
in 5.1 at the same time - i'd basically have to finish
writing, freeze it, then start mixing it in 5.1.....
which doesnt bake my cake, cos as soon as I start
panning & balancing I might (ie probably will) want to
start changing some of the VST stuff...

whats your feeling Huts?
could you describe a typical workflow that you use
for making and mixing music in 5.1 using
Live and kinTools?

do you have some 5.1 mixes we could check out?
and do you not use VST plugs?

As it stands I mix in quad within LIVE by using auxiliarys
and direct outputs but my control of panning/movement options
are limited...

But

I would rather limit the quad panning than have to limit the VST
elements that contribute a LOT to writing & the sound of my music
i'd appreciate your insights, especially bearing in mind that LIVE 5
is basically still 2.0 in terms of routing (altho dont get me wrong
ableton, i am in awe of what you have created)

that was why I was so pissed off with propellerheads that I sold reason.

My absolute number one wish was that they developed rewire a bit more because it wasn't finished in my mind. It's of limited use if you can only use it one way and not fully full duplex. Reason is no use to me whatsoever unless I can use it's modules as vsts or rewire instruments or whatever - but I would Definitley use malstrom, scream, rev 7, the filter and maybe one or to other things if they were part of my FX/Inst arsenal but they way they force you to use it only in reason and stubbornly refuse to allow audio in made it useless to me. I dont want to only use it as audio - I can create loops other ways better in live- I want to be able to pipe audio both ways.

huts · Post by **huts** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:13 pm

hi subbasshesd,

The VST plugs need many resources. KinTools also. It thinks if each mono track of audio you must divide it in 5, we have then 12 * 5 = 60 tracks of audio.

The ideal is to work with the sound and to mix it in the space at the same time, but that with VST plugs is complicated.

I would recommend to you to work with the audio one by a side and to render to mono tracks. Soon to load them in KinTools and to work with the space.

If you wanted to work with the sound and the space simultaneously, you can eliminate the VST plugs to work with the space and the sound in gross (Live and KinTools). Soon to sharpen the sound with VST plugs and to render it to mono tracks (Live). Soon it works single with KinTools (loading the mono tracks) and closes the work in 4, 5.1, 6.1...8-4.1 ......

If you want to listen to the possibilities that offer to you to move the sound in the space, single you must listen to the Demo that brings KinTools, is an audio file (10 seconds of jungle) in loop, that this randomly surfing in the space.

try it, the space is going to you to surprise

gomi · Post by **gomi** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:39 pm

forge wrote:
subbasshead wrote: My absolute number one wish was that they developed rewire a bit more because it wasn't finished in my mind. It's of limited use if you can only use it one way and not fully full duplex. Reason is no use to me whatsoever unless I can use it's modules as vsts or rewire instruments or whatever - but I would Definitley use malstrom, scream, rev 7, the filter and maybe one or to other things if they were part of my FX/Inst arsenal but they way they force you to use it only in reason and stubbornly refuse to allow audio in made it useless to me. I dont want to only use it as audio - I can create loops other ways better in live- I want to be able to pipe audio both ways.

http://www.cycling74.com/products/soundflower.html

won't let you put audio into reason (you'll have to wait for Hammer to do that)
but it offers a little more freedom for other audio<->audio interaction

took me awhile to find this thread again!

osx only... sorry windowsguys

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:44 am

Gomi,
Huts,

I'm using soundflower for many applictions, but just can't seem to figure out how to use it in conjunction with Kinetic ... can you feed eg . 6 soundflower channels (eg. coming from Live) into Kinetic and mix it there in space ?

head · Post by **head** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:05 am

Loosing your VST in the Rewire slave... hum,opening the same plugs in the channels of the rewire master that handle the outputs from your rewire slave sounds EXACTLY the same.

Its about sonic results.

If your priorities are about doing it a certain way on the computer, your concerns have nothing to do with music.

H

huts · Post by **huts** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:24 am

hello Mbazzy,

So far cannot be used KinTools and Live with soundflowwer.

KinTools works with rewire to be able to use the Tranport Bar.

In a next future...... will support this connection.

best

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:41 am

Huts,

Great
Very good to know ... this would expand the possibilities of Kinetic as a Live (in many ways

) spatial mixer ...

Personnally (and with me i think many "contemporary electronic musicians" that are into soundscapes, drones, noise, ..; ) really would love to be able to do a live surround mix installation this way ...

four_by_four_8 · Post by **four_by_four_8** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:59 pm

thanks huts.

it is the good news.

javascript:emoticon(':D')

huts · Post by **huts** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:38 pm

head wrote: If your priorities are about doing it a certain way on the computer, your concerns have nothing to do with music.

H

hi head,
My preoccupation is to create, and for it I use any tool.
The computer is a musical instrument that the human being has invented.
Still he is a boy, does not know nor to speak, it must grow, and to grow it is necessary to learn and therefore to try it anyway.

best

huts

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:02 am

Have had good and very interesting fun with surround in general and Kinetic in particular so far ... an interesting field at the least .

Personnally I have no access to one of the higher end DAW's or encoders for surround (DTS etc) , however I wondered if there are any encoders (for Mac OsX) that are available for surround for more marginal pricetags (or free) ...

Does max/Msp or Pd allow for embedded surround encoding ? I know Max isn't for free , but if it supports this natively, the price tag becomes far more attractive ...

Anyone that can enlighten this surround grasshopper .

subbasshead · Post by **subbasshead** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:35 am

hey Mbazzy
i know there is a small OSX application called A.Pack that comes as part of
Apples DVD Studio and it basically allows u to import 6 discrete AIF files
L,C,R,sL,sR,sub and then encode it to a single AC3 stream.
It should also then be possible to open that AC3 stream in Quicktime Pro
and recompress it as an AAC 5.1 stream...
bear in mind this is hypothetical, but if u know someone who uses
DVD Studio Pro it would be easy enough to do a test..

this aside, there was a site mentioned in this forum somewhere
that was having a competition for surround music production
and when u registered for the competition u could download
a free 5.1 encoder..... heres the link
http://www.tuner2.com/ismp.html

"Labels, promoters, and artists register now to get your free MPEG-4 aacPlus encoder software from Coding Technologies. When your track is ready, use the aacPlus encoder to encode your 5.1 stem files (in WAV or AIFF) into a high-quality 5.1 multichannel aacPlus at only 160Kbps."

jack rock · Post by **jack rock** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:25 pm

Mbazzy wrote: Does max/Msp or Pd allow for embedded surround encoding ? I know Max isn't for free , but if it supports this natively, the price tag becomes far more attractive

It does. There are a number of free externals for doing this.

Mbazzy · Post by **Mbazzy** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:59 am

Thx for the feedback !