PULL Ableton Device/VST controller

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
TomViolenz
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by TomViolenz » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:58 am

This looks totally awesome and the price you ask is cheap. Unfortunately the one of the iPad is not. So this has to wait for me :(

A few comments though:
xmonsta wrote: As you may know, Ableton native devices are actually really amazing. However, they are quite small and difficult to control with a mouse. The one thing this software does really well, is that it unlocks new potential within Ableton native devices and provides a completely new experience for them. Using this software (PULL), you'll find yourself making sounds that you didn't think were possible, using only Ableton devices.
Appart from being small they have tabs. Do your devices show all the tabs (especially from the instruments) at the same time?
There are a 2 ways of using this software:

1) Switch mode:

Switch mode loads all Ableton device templates onto the Lemur at once and creates a very snappy user experience (as shown on the video). All the available memory for the Lemur is used, so it's not possible to use this app in conjunction with any other Lemur template. We are actually exceeding the allowed memory on the Lemur (which doesn't cause any problems) and have devised our own way of uploading this template to the Lemur (outside of the Lemur editor). You will be able to load VST/Maxforlive device templates in here, but these will not be switchable (they will need to be sent to the app through WIFI).
Since all of the device templates are already loaded, can you also control a device that is NOT selected in Live.
Because, already working in Push, this often leads to annoyances when the selected device switches because you switch the track to play notes on another track with Push.
Two scenarios I would like:
1: lock to device with a press of a always available (virtual) button in your app (this should be easy, and you may have already implemented it)
2: control over two or more devices at the same time on a split screen iPad. Maybe by the app rather having a virtual lock, not using the "lock to control surface" function of Live, but just loading both templates into your app. Best would be if this could be twice the same device but different instances. Like two EQ8s on different tracks.

Parameters not available in Ableton API:

Vocoder and Operator bands - These are unfortunately not editable through the API. We will try to suggest Ableton add these. There are only a few other parameters that are unavailable in the API (such as some of the parts of Looper), but most are available.
If you have any sort of influence on Ableton on this, PLEASE don't forget the modulation parameters in Sampler.
(Aux envelope, LFO2 and LFO3 parameter assignment and amount) This has been bugging me forever!


Also, I don't have much experience with touch interfaces, but I wonder if on some of the devices it wouldn't be better to make the virtual knobs into faders. It seems easier to control by sliding than twisting.

yur2die4
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:01 pm

The nice thing about touch devices is that you can decide how a knob is controlled. There are a few popular methods.

One very common way is to simply press your finger on the knob, and use up/down for coarse, left/right for fine.

Although a trick with faders is that you can choose either relative (when you touch the fader at any part of it, you move up and down for it to continue from it's current position), or instant, where it jumps immediately to where your finger lands so you can move it to any position rapidly.

I'm sure there are plenty more things I am missing.

But yeah. A knob on touch devices has basically turned into a dot which you can put your finger on, and is essentially a fader (so you can fit a few extra :D)

TomViolenz
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by TomViolenz » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:12 pm

yur2die4 wrote:The nice thing about touch devices is that you can decide how a knob is controlled. There are a few popular methods.

One very common way is to simply press your finger on the knob, and use up/down for coarse, left/right for fine.

Although a trick with faders is that you can choose either relative (when you touch the fader at any part of it, you move up and down for it to continue from it's current position), or instant, where it jumps immediately to where your finger lands so you can move it to any position rapidly.

I'm sure there are plenty more things I am missing.

But yeah. A knob on touch devices has basically turned into a dot which you can put your finger on, and is essentially a fader (so you can fit a few extra :D)
this sounds cool and is a good use of screen space :-)

Maybe one day for me too, but for now I'm more happy with actual physical controls.

xmonsta
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by xmonsta » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:02 am

Hi TimViolenz,

The iPad is a really great tool for touchscreen sound design. While there's nothing like having physical controls at your fingertips, there's things you can do with a touchscreen that you can't do with physical controls (like customising your own set up, or emulating all of Ableton devices). A Touchscreen can be a really nice addition to your set up by complimenting the hardware you use to manage ableton. PULL is created for exactly this reason. It's not designed to replace your physical hardware, but to sit alongside PUSH or APC40 (or even without a controller, just using your mouse). You control Ableton, clips, mixer faders etc with your hardware controller/mouse and then use PULL to edit the devices when you select them.

You can get iPad first generation on ebay for around £80 now. Cheaper than android tables. The build quality of the iPad is also great. We've owned several iPads for over 4 years now and none of them have broken. I suspect they will last a good few more years yet. Battery doesnt seem to decrease over time either.
TimViolenz wrote:Appart from being small they have tabs. Do your devices show all the tabs (especially from the instruments) at the same time?
TABS: Yes, the devices show the same tabs as Ableton devices (only larger). The devices are designed to look just like ableton devices (we didnt want to go too far away from what people are used to in Ableton). However, you can customise these templates to your liking, remove parts, remove tabs, rearrange templates. Anything is possible. Based on user feedback, we'll also customise some new templates, to make them quicker or include more on-screen controls.
TimViolenz wrote:Two scenarios I would like:
1: lock to device with a press of a always available (virtual) button in your app (this should be easy, and you may have already implemented it)
2: control over two or more devices at the same time on a split screen iPad. Maybe by the app rather having a virtual lock, not using the "lock to control surface" function of Live, but just loading both templates into your app. Best would be if this could be twice the same device but different instances. Like two EQ8s on different tracks.
HOLD Mode - Yes, you can lock a specific device in hold mode. It will hold the selected device on the screen and you will be able to edit it, no matter which device is selected. Although you cannot split the screen, in future release we hope to allow you to select multiple "held" devices, so you can switch between these using tabs. However, this is largely unnecessary, when it only takes a split second to load the device templates. Its so quick that if you have two EQ8's you want to manage, you can just select them when you need to edit them.
TimViolenz wrote:Also, I don't have much experience with touch interfaces, but I wonder if on some of the devices it wouldn't be better to make the virtual knobs into faders. It seems easier to control by sliding than twisting.
Faders vs Knobs - Yes, yur2die4 has a good point here. Faders are virtually the same as knobs on a touchscreen device. You can easily control knobs in the same way that faders are controlled. You can also select a knob and move your hand away from the knob, giving a much wider surface area to move, and with it much finer control.

We were hoping to launch today, and hit some roadblocks. We'll hopefully launch tomorrow with a new website. We've also got several new products due to be released soon. An XYpad FX processor for ableton, enabling banks of 1000s of different effects. This should be available for android as well, since it's available also on TouchOSC. We have also created an EQ8 controller that uses LFO's on all the EQ8 bands. You can morph between vowel sounds, create risset filters, or just crazy filtered effects :)
http://www.xmonsta.com Music devices and controllers for Ableton Live

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TomViolenz
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:12 am

I'm not against owning an iPad, and the remark of the iPad 1 being affordable now is useful. It's just that so far everytime I had some extra money lying around it got spend on some other controller or software :mrgreen:

Regarding all tabs:
I think having all tabs visible is very useful. While I understand to make it look exactly like on the sreen in Live, I think copying the space constraints Ableton had when they tried to fit it on a screen with everything else too, makes less sense.
Often working in Sampler, I imagine a control for instance that would let me see and edit all 5 envelopes and the related controlls (like envelope amount and such) on top of each other.
That would be a revolution in workflow when I do sound design in it.

Regarding two EQ8s:
Even fast switching won't allow me to either play with two filters on two tracks in response to each other in a live situation, nor help with adjusting the eq of two tracks in a mixing situation in the studio. (Like dip bass on one, boost on the other while listening closely which exact amount gives the best result, without having to go back and forth - even if going back and forth is really fast).

I'm certainly not saying your app won't be great as it is, but I think it could enable whole new, almost revolutionary, workflows, if the all tabs and two devices thing where possible.

Good luck and godspeed with your endevour either way :D

xmonsta
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by xmonsta » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:45 pm

Hi TimViolenz,

Sounds like some good ideas. I think its definitely possible to do what you suggest (having all LFO's etc all on one page). You could do that easily now by editing the template (just moving all the stuff you dont need into a different tab). However, even better would be a switch where you could choose between multiple templates for each device. Definitely possible feature for the next version ;).

I think getting two EQ8s on screen at once in this app might be difficult. Its not really designed for playing live (mainly for workflow while your making tracks). However, we do have this type of functionality in our upcoming app XY FX. This app is designed for playing live. Basically you can have up to 8 XY pads each with 150 effects, included in this is a lo-mid-hi eq, so you can edit two on screen at the same time. You can also customise the 150 effects.

You could also use XY FX in conjunction with PULL (in send mode), so you can manage single devices with PULL and then put XY pads after them to filter and play around with two different effects on screen at once. We'll put up a video soon to show how it works.

Also, XY FX doesnt require the iPad. You can also use TouchOSC on android, or any midi controller to control it.

Cheers for all your feedback, really helpful :)
http://www.xmonsta.com Music devices and controllers for Ableton Live

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aioffermann
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by aioffermann » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:27 am

put it up put it up put it up!!!

haha, just kidding - i'm just excited to try it is all.

(but godspeed!)

puzzlefactory
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by puzzlefactory » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:44 pm

So whats going on with this? It's been 13 days since the 7 day countdown...

xmonsta
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by xmonsta » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:20 pm

Apologies for the delay. We're set to release it this weekend!

TomViolenz, we've checked out your request regarding different tabbed layouts to the ones provided in live. It's actually really easy to create this, you dont even need to build your own templates. You can simply alias the controls in the existing templates and build exactly the layout you want. The great thing about this is it's really quick to make (takes a few minutes) and doesnt really take up any additional memory on the lemur. We'll put up some help files on our website to show how to accomplish this, but will probably also include some designs, based on user feedback, in the next release :)
http://www.xmonsta.com Music devices and controllers for Ableton Live

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TomViolenz
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:06 pm

xmonsta wrote:Apologies for the delay. We're set to release it this weekend!

TomViolenz, we've checked out your request regarding different tabbed layouts to the ones provided in live. It's actually really easy to create this, you dont even need to build your own templates. You can simply alias the controls in the existing templates and build exactly the layout you want. The great thing about this is it's really quick to make (takes a few minutes) and doesnt really take up any additional memory on the lemur. We'll put up some help files on our website to show how to accomplish this, but will probably also include some designs, based on user feedback, in the next release :)
8)
As long as the envelopes or LFOs themselves are visible along with the parametes and change their appearance when you change the parameters this will be totally awesome!

tedlogan
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by tedlogan » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:27 pm

I swore no more gear after Push...but a first gen iPad with Pull mounted just behind the top of Push, where a laptop screen would be, does seem fantastic...especially now that you can customise the interface.
Operator, Sampler, etc laid out as one desires with Pull + Push...seems really fantastic

tedlogan
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by tedlogan » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:38 pm

Excuse my ignorance:

I've never really used an iPad and Lemur. How exactly does this setup work? I use a desktop PC with only ethernet wired internet connection. How will I communicate with the iPad via WiFi?

Thanks in advance

yur2die4
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by yur2die4 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:52 pm

If you're getting an iPad at all, you'll probably want at least an iPad 2.

The magic of the device is it's versatility. You might think you'll be satisfied only using Pull now, but believe me. There are many many amazing things for the iPad. And the more power, the better. Much like how music production on computers is.

I've been craving the Air, and am sort of wondering what an Air 2 might offer in comparison.

As for wifi etc. The easiest way to connect is on a home network.

Next is either using tethering (then you're wired) which requires the cellular iPad, or sometimes isn't an adapter that does midi (depends on if the app you're using supports midi only, I'm not sure of Pull uses midi only??)

Finally is adhoc which is almost broken on Windows. Depends on the version and your tech saviness.

aioffermann
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by aioffermann » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:11 pm

delete

xmonsta
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Re: iPad device controller - Speed up your workflow!

Post by xmonsta » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:07 pm

Hi Tedlogan,

Its a lot more simple than it sounds. You just connect to your router over wifi with all your devices (PC/Mac, iPad) and on each of them you fill in the IP address that you want to connect to.

So your router is (192.168.1.1)
Your iPad is (192.168.1.2)
Your PC/Mac is (192.168.1.3)

You just open your iPad/Lemur and type in 192.168.1.3 - to connect to the PC/Mac
Then on the PC/Mac (inside the Max Device) you enter the iPad's IP address - 192.168.1.2

They just automatically connect and can talk to each other.

It takes no longer than 2 minutes to set up first time and then each time after probably less than 60 seconds.

You dont need an adhoc connection to use this. It may speed things up just a little bit, but isn't necessary.

Adhoc works just fine on all of the windows/mac machines we've tested as long as you set the network up manually. Its pretty much the same as your router set up. However, it is really not needed with this software.

There are many great things coming for the iPad. This is only just the beginning.
http://www.xmonsta.com Music devices and controllers for Ableton Live

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