Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
4.33
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Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by 4.33 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:04 pm

Not that I got nothing to do, but bought a new MBP Retina late 2013 (which is a ridiculously fast machine) and Live started crackling at 128 which is more than reasonable buffer size. To avoid crackling I have to raise buffer size to 256.

So I did a simple test across Logic Pro X, Studio One 2 and Live 9.1.4:
- 128 buffer size
- Same 3rd party plugin chain peaking @ about 23-25% CPU in all DAWs

Which DAW has joined Live in crapping out on me? None.

Any thoughts?

H20nly
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by H20nly » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:02 pm

which DAW has warping enabled?

4.33
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by 4.33 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:22 pm

No, it's not the matter of warping - there are no playing clips in the set. Just some intense processing like convo reverbs (courtesy of Guitar Rig).

4.33
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by 4.33 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:26 am

So, have you learned to live with 256 samples or is there a workaround?

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:44 am

4.33 wrote:
Which DAW has joined Live in crapping out on me? None.

Any thoughts?
We must collectively raise our voices for Ableton to focus, in my opinion, exclusively, on fixing these crackling issues for good. Good sound is the heart of any DAW.

It would be most interesting if you please would test with Live 8 as well. Can you do this?

Can you please share your test project?
Make some music!

4.33
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by 4.33 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:02 am

Stromkraft wrote:
4.33 wrote:
Which DAW has joined Live in crapping out on me? None.

Any thoughts?
We must collectively raise our voices for Ableton to focus, in my opinion, exclusively, on fixing these crackling issues for good. Good sound is the heart of any DAW.

It would be most interesting if you please would test with Live 8 as well. Can you do this?

Can you please share your test project?
Hey, thanks for support! I don't have Live 8, but sure I'll replicate the issue with native plug ins and share the als.

fishmonkey
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:04 am

you cannot fairly compare the audio processing performance of Live (or Bitwig) to conventional linear DAWS.

a linear DAW has the luxury of stopping and starting playback whenever you change the devices in the project, or edit the audio or MIDI content. there is a significant overhead involved in maintaining seamless audio processing and output while allowing project tweaking like Live does. it also imposes limits on the utilisation of multiple CPU cores because on-the-fly parallelisation of real-time processing is difficult.

Live will always have a higher system overhead than Pro Tools, Studio One, Logic, Cubase, etc.
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:58 am

fishmonkey wrote:you cannot fairly compare the audio processing performance of Live (or Bitwig) to conventional linear DAWS.

Live will always have a higher system overhead than Pro Tools, Studio One, Logic, Cubase, etc.
Yes, you can compare with that in mind.

I disagree that the issues with crackling is because of CPU overload only. They appear far too early to only be attributed to that. I seldom experience these issues with my Babyface, but they do happen occasionally.
Make some music!

pencilrocket
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:37 am

don't use plugins require CPU resources in a single track.
https://www.ableton.com/articles/high-c ... -machines/

edit: correct URL
Last edited by pencilrocket on Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:38 pm

Pure English link to article High CPU load on one core when using multi-core machines.

Again, the main problem is that Live 9 typically may have crackles before CPU load is an issue. The observation I've made indicates crackles may appear also with only Live 9.x running and background processes off to a maximum and with just a couple of tracks. For me it's coming and going.

Most of the issues I've had are clearly CPU related, but far from all. When it is CPU related increasing latency or lightening up the load removes the issues.
In other cases this just doesn't work and typically then crackling is intermittent. So looping a piece works fine for a long time with a low CPU load and suddenly Live struggles for awhile and then gets back to trouble free operation.
There could of course be hidden calculations or procedures that task the CPU within Live, but so far I haven't seen CPU spikes or higher loads in the "other cases" at the same time as Live 9 is crackling.

In general I have very little crackling and I'm still very happy with Live 9.
Make some music!

fishmonkey
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:41 pm

Stromkraft wrote:The observation I've made indicates crackles may appear also with only Live 9.x running and background processes off to a maximum
what have you done to ensure that "background processes are off to a maximum"?
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:55 pm

fishmonkey wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:The observation I've made indicates crackles may appear also with only Live 9.x running and background processes off to a maximum
what have you done to ensure that "background processes are off to a maximum"?
I have quit all background processes that can be quit, including the Finder and System services that are not strictly needed, that when Live 9 is not running continually won't tax the CPU more than 5-10% or so. I'm also sampling the real CPU load in order to see what operations that can cause crackling. So far I've failed finding anything useful for the "other cases" when CPU load doesn't seem to be present. It could be a subroutine with side effects maybe, but I don't see it in CPU load.
Make some music!

H20nly
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by H20nly » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:27 pm

4.33 wrote:So, have you learned to live with 256 samples or is there a workaround?
i think you were directing that at me...

i have no idea what the situation is with 256 samples any more. i run at 92 or 128 typically.
i play a bass guitar and record vocals. sometimes there's some 6 string guitar. everything else is MIDI. i have no issue with latency and no audio crackles or pops... IF i did, i would increase the buffer.


i also use Cubase.

i purchased Logic but i never use it :oops:


you mention your computer being a MAC, but i see no mention of your audio interface. are you running Live off the onboard audio?

fishmonkey
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Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by fishmonkey » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:06 am

Stromkraft wrote: I have quit all background processes that can be quit, including the Finder and System services that are not strictly needed, that when Live 9 is not running continually won't tax the CPU more than 5-10% or so. I'm also sampling the real CPU load in order to see what operations that can cause crackling. So far I've failed finding anything useful for the "other cases" when CPU load doesn't seem to be present. It could be a subroutine with side effects maybe, but I don't see it in CPU load.
audio glitching problems aren't necessarily caused by high CPU use though. in fact, the most frustrating audio glitches are those caused by bad programming that causes a process to hold exclusive control over a processor for too long, especially driver-level processes. hardware interrupts generated by network interfaces are a classic example; the operating system spinning up drives is another. on Windows machines, the various DPC latency checker tools are designed to track down these sort of problems.

that is not so say that Live has never had bugs that cause glitches, however there are many other possible causes in your system apart from Live itself.
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

4.33
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Location: Moscow

Re: Live 9 latency comparison to other DAWs

Post by 4.33 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:01 pm

H20nly wrote:
4.33 wrote:So, have you learned to live with 256 samples or is there a workaround?
i think you were directing that at me...

i have no idea what the situation is with 256 samples any more. i run at 92 or 128 typically.
i play a bass guitar and record vocals. sometimes there's some 6 string guitar. everything else is MIDI. i have no issue with latency and no audio crackles or pops... IF i did, i would increase the buffer.


i also use Cubase.

i purchased Logic but i never use it :oops:


you mention your computer being a MAC, but i see no mention of your audio interface. are you running Live off the onboard audio?
It's a NI Komplete Audio 6.
92 buffer renders Live absolutely unusable for me. It's great that you don't have this problem so it seems that the problem is just with my setup, but for the life of me I can't figure it out. I maintain it mean and lean and both Logic and StudioOne perform beautifully. Except for Live, both in 32 and 64bit mode

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