Live-looping challenge - gurus, masters, tips needed

[nratzan]

Calling all Ableton-Live gurus, masters, and users!!

I'm a beatboxer and am looking to use Ableton for live-looping, however there seems to be a problem with live-looping in Ableton. If this were solved I think it would be a gold-mine for all types of live loopers.

So far I haven't found a good solution on forums and in speaking with other live-loopers. I hope you can help provide some insight or suggestions so people can take better advantage of Ableton for live-looping.

I've included details about the set-up and challenges below in order to clarify the challenge and show what hasn't been working.

Please let me know your thoughts or contact me to discuss if it's easier than email. I promise I'll post answers to this challenge if I receive them from somewhere other than this thread. Contact me for my phone number in case a phone call is more straight-forward.

Overview

I'm looking for a way to record and loop live audio on the fly in Ableton while ensuring that 1.) the process to launch recording from one track to the next requires only pressing a clip's record button in any given track, and 2.) the target recording track's devices and mixing are applied to the live audio signal while recording.

Scenario Details:

I'd like to record vocal clips live in Ableton and then switch to recording new clips on different tracks on the fly in a live-looping set-up. I'm using an Ableton Push as a midi-controller. I haven't, however, found a track set-up and routing method that allows me to effectively do live-looping in Ableton.

"Auto" option #1:

If I set the tracks monitoring to "auto", then I will have to record-enable the tracks one by one when switching to record on a new track; this makes on-the-fly looping impossible to do when clips are recorded one right after the other.

For instance, imagine I'm singing part A on a clip in track A and part B will follow on the next bar in track B. I set track A to "auto", record part A on a clip, and when it comes to get ready for part B, I'd have to set track B to record, stop the clip in track A, and then record launch part B before singing part B. That, of course, wouldn't work, however, because record is enabled on both tracks at once for a portion of time, and you will hear both tracks' mixing and devices at once during either's audio recording.

Monitored "In" track option #2

The only other way I know how to loop on the fly is with an "In" monitor track and several record-enabled receiving tracks' monitoring set to "Off". This set-up too, however, falls far short of what is needed for a live-looping performance.

This set-up allows the audience to hear live audio through the monitor track while I record the monitored audio to any of the multiple receiving tracks. The receiving tracks can all be set to record since it won't be monitored live - this way I don't have to change the receiving tracks' record-enable settings during performance, and you won't every hear audio doubled up through multiple tracks' mixers and devices as in the "auto" set-up example.

This setup, however, does not allow for the receiving tracks' devices or mixing to be applied to the live audio while it's still being recorded.

While it's being recorded, you only hear the original "In" monitor track; the receiving track's devices are only heard when the recording is finished and I start playing back the recorded clip.

Conclusion:

So far, there is no conclusion! If you have any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate hearing from you. Thank you so much.

Regards,
Noah

[TomViolenz]

I didn't get all of what you wrote. It was quite a wall of text. But if you want to trigger several different actions at the same time, like i.e. Arm Track 1, Mute Track 2, Record Track1 etc. and trigger that via Midi-- ClyphX is your friend.

[nratzan]

Thanks Tom!

I wonder how ClyphX should be set up though for the set-up I'm talking about. I looked into Bome Midi translator too. It was so complicated i didn't find a solution. I'm not a programmer. Is ClyphX simpler?

Any other approaches with simple midi programming or no midi programming whatsoever are appreciated. Thanks all!

[TomViolenz]

Yes clyphx would be way simpler, though I don't think using Bomes is that difficult.

Clyphx is a (free!) script that you load into Lives preferences.

After you have done that you can use it by either writing the actions into the clip names, arrangement locator names or into a text file in the clyphx folder named Usersettings.txt. The last you do in order to execute the actions via Midi commands directly.

The actions really only look like code, in actuality they are more like written out task lists.
It's just that making a GUI for it would not really have been apropriate.

The manual lists all tasks you can string together, the way you use them and really good explanations. There is no reason for you to look for another tool.

If you have still questions after you have read the manual, I'll be glad to help. But I won't write up the manual here.

[chapelier fou]

You could use option #2 and use sends instead of inserts, and a maxforlive patch.
the m4l patch would : detect which track you are recording to - check its sends positions - apply it to the IN track.

Just a thought. Would work well with reverbs or delays at least.

Or, depending on the setup :
option #2 but route the IN and the PLAY tracks (basically all the tracks) to another track acting like a bus.

hope this helps.

[chapelier fou]

OR :

deal with it.
That's what i do.

[nratzan]

Chapelier - Thanks for the suggestion! I will look into the Maxforlive patch. Do you know of one that already exists. I've never tried programming one and could learn, but if you know of one like that already it'd be a helpful start to see how it's set up.

Great suggestions - Thank you for anyone who has tips!

[chapelier fou]

The patch would be to do.
Could take a look, but im way too busy for weeks, to be honest.

[Winterpark]

I think a variation of option 2 will work for you.

If you have it set up that your FX that you want applied to clips is on the 'monitoring' channel, rather than the channel you want to record onto, and set the 'record' channels to receive audio from that monitor channel (post FX) then what you will record will have FX printed to those clips.

If you want different FX, create a bank of FX, and Macro map the chain selector to change between them.

No m4l patches required.

[nratzan]

Winterpark- Thanks for the simplified suggestion. I think this may be a very good start. Is there a way so that any clip record-launched from within a track will change the chain selector accordingly?

If I could at least map the Track Launch button to a midi control that also changes the chain selector to a specific value then it'd be more automatic to change the effects bank.

It appears more apparent that M4L knowhow would help, though your workaround seems very simple and close to getting what I'm trying to do. Thanks again,
Noah

[Steve Glen]

From what I understand, this could be a potential solution.

Although Max and other programs can be great for patching stuff together in interesting ways, they can be privy to bugs, they are system dependent, and sometimes they get left behind after an update. Your other option, using Push's MIDI user mode to midi map many virtual buttons to one controller button, is not really convenient because you have to leave(briefly) the native mode (with all it's functionality) to access it. Also, it makes your set dependent on bringing the controller.

I highly recommend using clips and clip automation to change things, especially if you have an idea of how many bars you want to use as looped. The hangup with live looping is that you haven't made the clip yet, so we'll set up the routing beforehand to be processed through a dummy clip. The dummy clip is an audio clip, but when the track's monitoring is set to 'In', the referenced audio is ignored allowing us to utilize the device automation stored in the clip to control the outgoing audio.

Check out this set. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pfxreyju995j ... plate?dl=0 You'll find it's as easy as launching the Group Clip box (The arrows under the group), the launching the recorded clip to stop it from recording and start it playing back. Just work your way down the list as you normally would with scenes. (Alternatively, you could use scenes)


When launching the group clip, we launch three things together:
1. A place to record (when a new clip is created on a armed track)
a) audio (singing)
b) device preset automation, mixing automation
*This is routed, so we don't hear the output from this track directly, but we do hear:
2. A pre-made sequence> A clip on a channel that allows the newly recorded singing+effects to be sent to the monitors (in this case 7/8).
*BUT ONLY FOR 4 BARS, then it shuts off
3. A pre-made sequence> A clip on a channel that allows the newly recorded singing+effects to be sent to the main outs (1/2)
*BUT ONLY AFTER 4 BARS HAS PASSED,


Clip automation turns two utility volume controls to move this action. You'll find this in CLIP VIEW> ENVELOPES>Audio effect rack> Gain.

[Steve Glen]

Make sure that you have "Start recording on scene launch" set to [ON], found under preferences>Warp Record Launch.

[Steve Glen]

Once you got that figured out, you can free up push button real-estate by removing the "Record Vocals A" & "Record vocals B" from the group and collapsing the group.

[chapelier fou]

I think a variation of option 2 will work for you.

If you have it set up that your FX that you want applied to clips is on the 'monitoring' channel, rather than the channel you want to record onto, and set the 'record' channels to receive audio from that monitor channel (post FX) then what you will record will have FX printed to those clips.

If you want different FX, create a bank of FX, and Macro map the chain selector to change between them.

No m4l patches required.

Yep but would sound weird for delays and reverbs tails.

[Winterpark]

I think a variation of option 2 will work for you.

If you have it set up that your FX that you want applied to clips is on the 'monitoring' channel, rather than the channel you want to record onto, and set the 'record' channels to receive audio from that monitor channel (post FX) then what you will record will have FX printed to those clips.

If you want different FX, create a bank of FX, and Macro map the chain selector to change between them.

No m4l patches required.

Yep but would sound weird for delays and reverbs tails.

True. The way around that could be just not to do it as clip recording, and use a looper on that record channel instead.