Rant: Why I hate Live
Rant: Why I hate Live
So I'm a long time Reason user, I tried FL Studio before (was dissapointed) but I got Live with my keyboard and thought I'd give it a go. I've been using it for several weeks now and I really try to like it but it dissapoints me with small things which eventually ruin the experience.
First, people praise the browser in Ableton (and its good), I'm having major problems with it which affects my workflow. Problem is, this is the only program I have which works with VST's which some I have and wanted to use for a long time. But Live is love/hate for me, it does a lot of things well then does stupid stuff.
Or Am I doing something wrong? Maybe there are some workarounds for these issues? In the preferences maybe?
1. can you search for something like "F#"? Because I cant make it work. Thats one thing that Live doesnt let me enter the hashmark character in the first place, but then it shows everything with an "F" in it, basically ignoring the hash. This makes searching for keyed samples a big pain in the *** already.
2. The sample preview player (at the bottom of the browers) is way too simple. We're talking about one of the most important functions here yet you cant even use your cursor to start a sample at a certain point, or rewind it or whatever. In modern electronic music samples are fundamental. I shouldnt need to load a track just to listen to a sample properly. Also: no volume control for this player either. I know people (djs0 )use more than output channels for this but producers rarely do.
3. Searching affects every category. Now this is something I really find annoying, maybe its not a problem for others: lets say you search for something in the samples, then you find something you want to load: Now if you go to "Intruments" or "Plugins", they show the result of that search. So I need to delete the search first, enter a new search (or just find a plugin), go back to samples, then search again so I can continue looking for stuff... Very annoying and slows you down
General annoyances:
4. NO TOOLTIPS ANYWHERE. JUST WHY. I'd expect a program made it to version 9 to have some kind of explanations when you go over a button with the mouse. Ableton instead of tooltips have a dedicated window at the bottom left corner, meaning every time you want to read something you need to go down there and then back to where you were. Like when I try to set a knob I have to look at both the knob and the bottom bar at the same time. Again, completely and pointlessly time consuming.
5. Annoying limitation of the mixing/session view: There is just not enough space for anything here. I have to group then group some more to save space, but it gets messy after a while. Then of course I have the ability to color code stuff which doesnt really help with this. On my screen I can fit in maybe 12 tracks, 2 sends and the master channel. Okay, so this is how a real life console looks like you say? Well the thing is, Ableton's flat design is just CRAP for this, tracks look mashed together, no defined borders, nothing. Ableton should work on desing altogether, the whole program looks like its a beta version. Maybe they should look up such futuristic design paradigms as "space" or "UX design"
6. Live displays song progress in beats. I dont know who thought this was a good idea. At least let me change it to minutes/seconds. I need both for a good workflow. Beats while composing, and time while mixing/mastering.
7. Scrollbars are small and you need to take a fraction of a second each time to find them. They add up.
8. You cant enter exact values. This is a HUGE deal for a lot of people apparently, yet Ableton couldnt figure it out for 9 versions. Like I want something at 15db but Ableton decides I can only enter 14.9 or 15.2. Or worse, I have to fine tune something with a knob and it just needs very fine mouse movements like its a puzzle game???
9. Vertical zoom in arrangement view: This should be there, as you can zoom horizontally, but when lets say doing automation stuff its very annoying to try to mess with small dots and lines
10. Cursor in session view: when I hit mouse, I expect the program to draw a line all the way down and up. Instead, it puts a line through the selected clip. Makes matching clips VERY ANNOYING to say at least.
11. REX files: these I have a lot, yet Ableton cant play them like I really want them. I have to slice the rex to a new midi track just to play with it. Basically Ableton treats REX files like audio files
12. No built in spectrum analyser on tracks. Do I have to put a plugin on each track just so I can see whats going on there? This is more baffling when you consider that Live HAS a built in Spectrum analyser.
13. No real zoom ability in session view. Why cant I just zoom at a certain point with one click, instead of playing with the zoom bar? Generally they should copy Reason here, it has things like slice tool, mute tool etc. Very useful things which are painful not to have after getting used to them
14. Cant create midi clips with write mode in arrangement view: again, while working on a full song this should be there instead of messing with selections and right click menus. I'd prefer the click and drag method, since it makes it so so much faster.
15. I cant record in session view without playing the whole song. This gets an issue especially if the whole CPU load is high. If I only want to record a single MIDI clip I shouldnt need to play the whole song (but there should be an option to do this as well)
I'm sure there is more and maybe there are some solutions for some of these, but small things add up and I realized I spend a lot more time in Ableton looking for things/trying to figure out how to do something instead of actually making music.
Now for some good: Ableton is really better for actually producing because of all the small things they got right. Yet for me in the end its very mixed. And I just HATE the design, and flat design is just stupid for a program like this where you spend hours tweaking small buttons. I really really miss Reason's design. Then again, Reason has a lot of big limitations (not supporting VST's is one, also Refills are stupid).
Should I try Bitwig now?
First, people praise the browser in Ableton (and its good), I'm having major problems with it which affects my workflow. Problem is, this is the only program I have which works with VST's which some I have and wanted to use for a long time. But Live is love/hate for me, it does a lot of things well then does stupid stuff.
Or Am I doing something wrong? Maybe there are some workarounds for these issues? In the preferences maybe?
1. can you search for something like "F#"? Because I cant make it work. Thats one thing that Live doesnt let me enter the hashmark character in the first place, but then it shows everything with an "F" in it, basically ignoring the hash. This makes searching for keyed samples a big pain in the *** already.
2. The sample preview player (at the bottom of the browers) is way too simple. We're talking about one of the most important functions here yet you cant even use your cursor to start a sample at a certain point, or rewind it or whatever. In modern electronic music samples are fundamental. I shouldnt need to load a track just to listen to a sample properly. Also: no volume control for this player either. I know people (djs0 )use more than output channels for this but producers rarely do.
3. Searching affects every category. Now this is something I really find annoying, maybe its not a problem for others: lets say you search for something in the samples, then you find something you want to load: Now if you go to "Intruments" or "Plugins", they show the result of that search. So I need to delete the search first, enter a new search (or just find a plugin), go back to samples, then search again so I can continue looking for stuff... Very annoying and slows you down
General annoyances:
4. NO TOOLTIPS ANYWHERE. JUST WHY. I'd expect a program made it to version 9 to have some kind of explanations when you go over a button with the mouse. Ableton instead of tooltips have a dedicated window at the bottom left corner, meaning every time you want to read something you need to go down there and then back to where you were. Like when I try to set a knob I have to look at both the knob and the bottom bar at the same time. Again, completely and pointlessly time consuming.
5. Annoying limitation of the mixing/session view: There is just not enough space for anything here. I have to group then group some more to save space, but it gets messy after a while. Then of course I have the ability to color code stuff which doesnt really help with this. On my screen I can fit in maybe 12 tracks, 2 sends and the master channel. Okay, so this is how a real life console looks like you say? Well the thing is, Ableton's flat design is just CRAP for this, tracks look mashed together, no defined borders, nothing. Ableton should work on desing altogether, the whole program looks like its a beta version. Maybe they should look up such futuristic design paradigms as "space" or "UX design"
6. Live displays song progress in beats. I dont know who thought this was a good idea. At least let me change it to minutes/seconds. I need both for a good workflow. Beats while composing, and time while mixing/mastering.
7. Scrollbars are small and you need to take a fraction of a second each time to find them. They add up.
8. You cant enter exact values. This is a HUGE deal for a lot of people apparently, yet Ableton couldnt figure it out for 9 versions. Like I want something at 15db but Ableton decides I can only enter 14.9 or 15.2. Or worse, I have to fine tune something with a knob and it just needs very fine mouse movements like its a puzzle game???
9. Vertical zoom in arrangement view: This should be there, as you can zoom horizontally, but when lets say doing automation stuff its very annoying to try to mess with small dots and lines
10. Cursor in session view: when I hit mouse, I expect the program to draw a line all the way down and up. Instead, it puts a line through the selected clip. Makes matching clips VERY ANNOYING to say at least.
11. REX files: these I have a lot, yet Ableton cant play them like I really want them. I have to slice the rex to a new midi track just to play with it. Basically Ableton treats REX files like audio files
12. No built in spectrum analyser on tracks. Do I have to put a plugin on each track just so I can see whats going on there? This is more baffling when you consider that Live HAS a built in Spectrum analyser.
13. No real zoom ability in session view. Why cant I just zoom at a certain point with one click, instead of playing with the zoom bar? Generally they should copy Reason here, it has things like slice tool, mute tool etc. Very useful things which are painful not to have after getting used to them
14. Cant create midi clips with write mode in arrangement view: again, while working on a full song this should be there instead of messing with selections and right click menus. I'd prefer the click and drag method, since it makes it so so much faster.
15. I cant record in session view without playing the whole song. This gets an issue especially if the whole CPU load is high. If I only want to record a single MIDI clip I shouldnt need to play the whole song (but there should be an option to do this as well)
I'm sure there is more and maybe there are some solutions for some of these, but small things add up and I realized I spend a lot more time in Ableton looking for things/trying to figure out how to do something instead of actually making music.
Now for some good: Ableton is really better for actually producing because of all the small things they got right. Yet for me in the end its very mixed. And I just HATE the design, and flat design is just stupid for a program like this where you spend hours tweaking small buttons. I really really miss Reason's design. Then again, Reason has a lot of big limitations (not supporting VST's is one, also Refills are stupid).
Should I try Bitwig now?
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
Well I could agree to some extent with you about the browser and the lack of zoom, and fine adjustment with some modifier keys.
You can control the volume of the sample preview with the cue volume (read the manual).
About the interface I couldn't disagree more, Live GUI is functionalism/minimalism at it's best, a totally opposite direction than other daw's (except btiwig which copied all of it). Of course if you come from reason with all its skeumorphism and anti ergonomic design you are going to feel in an alien world, but as professional designed GUI Live is just ahead of almost everyother daw.
About
4. NO TOOLTIPS ANYWHERE. There are tool tips in the left corner (below the browser).
5. Annoying limitation of the mixing/session view.- AFAIK all daws work the same about this, you can make tracks wider/thinner but eventually you ran out of sapce.
6. Live displays song progress in beats. Live displays minutes and seconds at the bottom of arrange view
7. Scrollbars are small and you need to take a fraction of a second each time to find them. They add up.
8. You cant enter exact values. I can write in any value, but adjusting with knobs it's a problem, a fine tune mod key would usefull
9. Vertical zoom in arrangement view: I kind of agree.
10. Cursor in session view: I prefer the current behaviour
11. REX files: I kind of udnerstand you, would be nice to have both
12. No built in spectrum analyser on tracks. I don't why I would want to have one all the time.
13. No real zoom ability in session view. I think I would have to try to do it other way to understand your problem here.
14. Cant create midi clips with write mode in arrangement view: I dont understand this
15. I cant record in session view without playing the whole song. You can stop all the other clips.
I think you should read the manual before ranting-
You can control the volume of the sample preview with the cue volume (read the manual).
About the interface I couldn't disagree more, Live GUI is functionalism/minimalism at it's best, a totally opposite direction than other daw's (except btiwig which copied all of it). Of course if you come from reason with all its skeumorphism and anti ergonomic design you are going to feel in an alien world, but as professional designed GUI Live is just ahead of almost everyother daw.
About
4. NO TOOLTIPS ANYWHERE. There are tool tips in the left corner (below the browser).
5. Annoying limitation of the mixing/session view.- AFAIK all daws work the same about this, you can make tracks wider/thinner but eventually you ran out of sapce.
6. Live displays song progress in beats. Live displays minutes and seconds at the bottom of arrange view
7. Scrollbars are small and you need to take a fraction of a second each time to find them. They add up.
8. You cant enter exact values. I can write in any value, but adjusting with knobs it's a problem, a fine tune mod key would usefull
9. Vertical zoom in arrangement view: I kind of agree.
10. Cursor in session view: I prefer the current behaviour
11. REX files: I kind of udnerstand you, would be nice to have both
12. No built in spectrum analyser on tracks. I don't why I would want to have one all the time.
13. No real zoom ability in session view. I think I would have to try to do it other way to understand your problem here.
14. Cant create midi clips with write mode in arrangement view: I dont understand this
15. I cant record in session view without playing the whole song. You can stop all the other clips.
I think you should read the manual before ranting-
Last edited by login on Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
Well a lot of what you say might be true, but things like "You can stop all the tracks" is what being time consuming is all about. I dont know about others but on average I have cc. 20-30 tracks and up to 100 clips (drum, variation, second variation etc.) for a single song. So anything which takes one sec more adds up at the end if you have to do it each time with a new clip.
Same with the tooltip thing: every time you spend 200ms just to look down then up. In the end you spent 1 hour just lookiung up and down while mixing to tweak parameters. This is why tooltips were invented in the first place. So you know what you're doing looking at it while doing it. No delays there.
Same with the cue volume, which is at the other side of the program. Again if I play with samples I should have volume and playback control at the sample preview player.
I guess design is a matter of taste. For me Live is way too crowded, even though many people use it on laptops. It looks pretty on a huge monitor, but I work on songs on the go as well, and my average sized (15.6") laptop screen is small for all these.
Same with the tooltip thing: every time you spend 200ms just to look down then up. In the end you spent 1 hour just lookiung up and down while mixing to tweak parameters. This is why tooltips were invented in the first place. So you know what you're doing looking at it while doing it. No delays there.
Same with the cue volume, which is at the other side of the program. Again if I play with samples I should have volume and playback control at the sample preview player.
I guess design is a matter of taste. For me Live is way too crowded, even though many people use it on laptops. It looks pretty on a huge monitor, but I work on songs on the go as well, and my average sized (15.6") laptop screen is small for all these.
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
number 2 is wrong in all aspects, TLDR
ctrl + left/right = select transient
ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients
ctrl + space = play selection
ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients
ctrl + space = play selection
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
12 > u can create track defaults (with two clicks) , so don't have to repeat it > https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/wor ... ts-live-9/
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
what do you mean wrong? Can I play a sample a different way than all the way through without loading it into a track?dna598 wrote:number 2 is wrong in all aspects, TLDR
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
general looks, should try to create an own skin that gonna help much, my one (it was taken almost a day for me to find a good looking color combination)
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/141013/al_design ... es.hu_.jpg
REX files, u can still use Reason with ReWire so it can't be a huuuge problem, if u have Max for Live check Ableton Live 9: Max for Live "Reason 1.1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMukCzGdm8A
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/141013/al_design ... es.hu_.jpg
REX files, u can still use Reason with ReWire so it can't be a huuuge problem, if u have Max for Live check Ableton Live 9: Max for Live "Reason 1.1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMukCzGdm8A
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
btw AL will be completely different (light years better) with Push (can have vertical track zooming for example etc. etc.), worth to check the 30days with Push series http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhP-_RUJ ... 8v2ZSSgEYR
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
that looks pretty. Can I get it somewhere? I have some skins but none of them looks really good.xbitz wrote:general looks, should try to create an own skin that gonna help much, my one (it was taken almost a day for me to find a good looking color combination)
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/141013/al_design ... es.hu_.jpg
REX files, u can still use Reason with ReWire so it can't be a huuuge problem, if u have Max for Live check Ableton Live 9: Max for Live "Reason 1.1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMukCzGdm8A
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
the main skin waslpadre wrote:that looks pretty. Can I get it somewhere? I have some skins but none of them looks really good.xbitz wrote:general looks, should try to create an own skin that gonna help much, my one (it was taken almost a day for me to find a good looking color combination)
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/141013/al_design ... es.hu_.jpg
REX files, u can still use Reason with ReWire so it can't be a huuuge problem, if u have Max for Live check Ableton Live 9: Max for Live "Reason 1.1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMukCzGdm8A
http://www.angussimons.com/plugins-2/ableton-live
+
--
oops sry for the img size
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
The Stop All Clips Button.lpadre wrote:Well a lot of what you say might be true, but things like "You can stop all the tracks" is what being time consuming is all about. I dont know about others but on average I have cc. 20-30 tracks and up to 100 clips (drum, variation, second variation etc.) for a single song. So anything which takes one sec more adds up at the end if you have to do it each time with a new clip.
I dont have problems with the position of info and the cue vaolume control (since it controls cue from tracks too).
About the interface, Do you know you can make it small using the zoom in preferences?
again: read the manual.
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
Maybe read the Manual ?lpadre wrote: Should I try Bitwig now?
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
Thank you, I'm totally gonna get thisxbitz wrote:the main skin waslpadre wrote:that looks pretty. Can I get it somewhere? I have some skins but none of them looks really good.xbitz wrote:general looks, should try to create an own skin that gonna help much, my one (it was taken almost a day for me to find a good looking color combination)
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/141013/al_design ... es.hu_.jpg
REX files, u can still use Reason with ReWire so it can't be a huuuge problem, if u have Max for Live check Ableton Live 9: Max for Live "Reason 1.1" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMukCzGdm8A
http://www.angussimons.com/plugins-2/ableton-live
+
--
oops sry for the img size
Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
i'm guessing the reason that a spectral analyser doesn't make its way as a default into tracks for processing reasons, i.e. not having 30+ spectral analysers all processing individual tracks would be a tremendous CPU hog. if reason is doing that, they probably have a nifty way of just using that processing for the track you are viewing. i'm guessing you can't compare two spectral analysers for different tracks at the same time, which can be useful when carving out notches to fit your frequencies.
i think a lot of the gripes you have are because you are used to doing things in reason- all DAWs are built differently, with different workflows and ways of going about things. learning a new DAW is no walk in the park- its frustrating and takes a lot of time to figure out exactly how to do certain things. sometimes, you just can't do the things you are used to doing in another DAW. its important to be aware that there will be inefficiencies and hiccups while learning any new tool, especially one as deep and powerful as a DAW.
i think a lot of the gripes you have are because you are used to doing things in reason- all DAWs are built differently, with different workflows and ways of going about things. learning a new DAW is no walk in the park- its frustrating and takes a lot of time to figure out exactly how to do certain things. sometimes, you just can't do the things you are used to doing in another DAW. its important to be aware that there will be inefficiencies and hiccups while learning any new tool, especially one as deep and powerful as a DAW.
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Re: Rant: Why I hate Live
True, unless you use another VST like BC MultiAnalyzer or whatev.memes_33 wrote:i'm guessing you can't compare two spectral analysers for different tracks at the same time, which can be useful when carving out notches to fit your frequencies.
However, I find that if I can get Spectrum to be in the same visual space on 2 tracks I can use key-mapping to toggle tracks quickly and compare the spectra without moving my eyes, which OP was complaining about re: tooltips vs. info view