New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
tedlogan
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:23 pm
Location: Leamington Spa, UK
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by tedlogan » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:36 pm

IF this happens I would stick with the last version I was on til I whither away. I hate the subscription model in the case of software. I've got more than everything I need to make music. Or switch DAW, though I'll miss Push.

If however, Live 10 comes out for example, and you pay monthly until you've paid the full amount and then stop paying, then I see no problem. Possibly more sales due to it being more affordable for some. Updates should be free. Rainbowponyland.

Schmidi
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 2:07 am
Location: Seattle

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Schmidi » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:00 pm

beats me wrote:If things start swaying this way across the board I think it’s another point for Apple and Logic. They don’t need the money for their software so they aren’t going to go subscription. If anything this might just lead people right to Logic, already one of the cheaper but high quality DAWs.

Not a disrespect to you Beats Me, but Apple already has folks on a subscription plan, IE forced obsolescence via frequent OS updates forcing folks to upgrade hardware on regular intervals!

Donnie
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Donnie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:13 pm

These types of subscription models are new age piracy protection in disguise. They are also a clever way to get people who have disposable income to let go of more money, while at the same time allowing an introductory path for people who can't afford the full amount upfront.

I hate it because I tend to let subs go longer than needed, meaning the more prevalent these models become the more likely I am to get duped out of money :lol:

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by beats me » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:29 pm

Schmidi wrote:
beats me wrote:If things start swaying this way across the board I think it’s another point for Apple and Logic. They don’t need the money for their software so they aren’t going to go subscription. If anything this might just lead people right to Logic, already one of the cheaper but high quality DAWs.

Not a disrespect to you Beats Me, but Apple already has folks on a subscription plan, IE forced obsolescence via frequent OS updates forcing folks to upgrade hardware on regular intervals!


None taken, but that’s a classic over exaggerated argument like Logic is cheap but requires a $2,000 dongle known as a Mac. Apple doesn’t force anybody to upgrade the OS any more so than Microsoft. Many new features in the new OS aren’t necessary or life changers, but people just want to upgrade. Toss in the fact that the OS upgrades are free and people have no self-control when it comes to free shit.

Although it’s true that you had to upgrade to at least Mavericks to run Logic Pro X, but we have Mavericks running on a 2009 and 2011 Mac without issue. And I predict that Microsoft and their developers are going to require you to be on a recent OS to run certain new software too, if they haven’t done that already. But also as far as I know Windows upgrades haven’t typically offered any new features that people get excited about. So it’s a matter of little incentive to upgrade.

analog_rome
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:44 am

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by analog_rome » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:01 pm

My day job is mostly spent using Adobe Creative Cloud, and the consensus on the subscription model from my fellow video people is that it is a great deal for a business that depends on their products, but for an individual artist or hobbyist it is horrible.

Since the large majority of Adobe CC users are business/professional while the large majority of Ableton users are bedroom producers, I would think this doesn't seem like a likely move for Ableton.

Like others are pointing out this is all about piracy and Adobe cashflow. Regarding piracy I can appreciate the justification, but I think the cashflow reason stinks.

Music and video production people have shown they are ready and willing to jump over to a new product if the current one pisses them off enough. Software choices and portability are abundant these days.

re:dream
Posts: 4554
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by re:dream » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:17 pm

Well Behles has gone on record as saying they are not bothered about piracy.

Quez
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:53 pm
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Quez » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:21 pm

If Ableton Live goes subscription-only, and/or somehow modify update path to charge more or/that we get less, then I'm gonna stick with my version and... well when it will be time to move on, I'll have to go check out other music programs, unfortunately.

And as analog_rome said, Adobe CC is only good for businesses, for individuals it's a nightmare... thankfully some alternatives are starting to emerge, even if they still have a way to go.

BoddAH
Posts: 638
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:13 pm
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by BoddAH » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:40 pm

I would salute the initiative. “Ownership” of a software license seems to be the way things have been done until now but it’s a fundamentally flawed practice. You can never really “own” software, even if it feels good to own something, it just doesn’t work with software.

A subscription model would have many benefits:

1. It really forces companies to fix bugs in the software, offer quality support and keep adding interesting features. Basically do everything to keep people paying for the subscription instead of luring in potential buyers with promises to pay for a multi-hundred dollar product that might as well end up being bad and unsupported.
2. It ensures OS compatibly as long as you’re using the software. If a company goes out of business and stops supporting the product. Or you want to stop using the software for any reason, you would stop paying monthly instantly and wouldn’t have lost anything.

It is important to note that this business only should be applied to creative or productive software, or “tools”, like Ableton, Microsoft Office or even Windows and other OSs that need constant support and compatibility updates and that are used on a long-term basis. It’s completely fine if consumer software like video games or movies, as well as sample libraries and stuff like that for music producers keep being sold like products with ownership. Those are things you can own and are more alike to products than services. Anything like VSTs or DAWs however, that are more like services would be better off on the subscription model IMHO.

It’s great to own stuff. If you like the feeling, start collecting hardware synths or headphones but software ownership needs to die, seriously.

A DAW is like a fitness studio. And you don’t buy a ludicrously expensive membership card for a fitness studio that gives you access to it forever, with a new, updated membership card released every few years that gives you access to new rooms. You pay for a membership subscription and those guys better keep the facilities clean and well maintained if they want to keep you as a regular customer. :D

Obviously all of this applies only if the price of the subscription is right and fair. It’s legitimate to be pissed off if the subscription model is just a way for the companies to squeeze more cash out of users but I honestly don’t believe this would be the case. If you think a $ 15-20 subscription a month would be a lot of money over ten years of use, try adding the upgrade price of every new version… :lol:

At the end of the day, buying updates and upgrades is the same thing as paying a subscription. It’s just a retarded way of doing it.

TomViolenz
Posts: 6854
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by TomViolenz » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:43 pm

Donnie wrote:These types of subscription models are new age piracy protection in disguise.
How so?!
I doubt that measure alone would make the software harder to crack.

I would go as far as saying that this model would put the pirats at an even bigger advantage vs. the honest user than they already are.

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by beats me » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:55 pm

TomViolenz wrote:
Donnie wrote:These types of subscription models are new age piracy protection in disguise.
How so?!
I doubt that measure alone would make the software harder to crack.

I would go as far as saying that this model would put the pirats at an even bigger advantage vs. the honest user than they already are.

I think part of it is also poor management of or inability to gauge price versus demand. If they price a product at X then that should hopefully offset piracy instead of if they priced the product at lower X then more people would actually buy it.

Quez
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:53 pm
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Quez » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:56 pm

BoddAH wrote:1. It really forces companies to fix bugs in the software, offer quality support and keep adding interesting features.
I see it that way: they can get continuous money from you without adding really useful new features. Or leave-in more bugs to fix in the future... and have you pay for it.
BoddAH wrote:2. It ensures OS compatibly as long as you’re using the software.
OS compatibility shouldn't be a matter of paying monthly fees. The current problem with this is Apple breaking and removing features with a totally unnecessary yearly OS X update. It's a marketing tactic to get people to update their hardware/software more frequently and build-in obsolescence. And then you spend more money. Of course when big technological changes happens, well, it happens (for exemple moving from PPC/IBM to Intel processors)
BoddAH wrote:A DAW is like a fitness studio.
No, it's not.
BoddAH wrote:It’s legitimate to be pissed off if the subscription model is just a way for the companies to squeeze more cash out of users but I honestly don’t believe this would be the case.
Of course it's to squeeze more cash out of users. Why else would they do that then, if it gave them less money in the end ?

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:05 pm

Schmidi wrote:

Not a disrespect to you Beats Me, but Apple already has folks on a subscription plan, IE forced obsolescence via frequent OS updates forcing folks to upgrade hardware on regular intervals!
That's a logical somersault you do there considering how old machines that actually are supported by the current version of OS X. Live in my old machine isn't slower in Yosemite than in Snow Leopard or even Leopard. That later versions of OS X are slower is just a myth.
Make some music!

tedlogan
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:23 pm
Location: Leamington Spa, UK
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by tedlogan » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:11 pm

BoddAH wrote:I would salute the initiative. “Ownership” of a software license seems to be the way things have been done until now but it’s a fundamentally flawed practice. You can never really “own” software, even if it feels good to own something, it just doesn’t work with software.

A subscription model would have many benefits:

1. It really forces companies to fix bugs in the software, offer quality support and keep adding interesting features. Basically do everything to keep people paying for the subscription instead of luring in potential buyers with promises to pay for a multi-hundred dollar product that might as well end up being bad and unsupported.
2. It ensures OS compatibly as long as you’re using the software. If a company goes out of business and stops supporting the product. Or you want to stop using the software for any reason, you would stop paying monthly instantly and wouldn’t have lost anything.

It is important to note that this business only should be applied to creative or productive software, or “tools”, like Ableton, Microsoft Office or even Windows and other OSs that need constant support and compatibility updates and that are used on a long-term basis. It’s completely fine if consumer software like video games or movies, as well as sample libraries and stuff like that for music producers keep being sold like products with ownership. Those are things you can own and are more alike to products than services. Anything like VSTs or DAWs however, that are more like services would be better off on the subscription model IMHO.

It’s great to own stuff. If you like the feeling, start collecting hardware synths or headphones but software ownership needs to die, seriously.

A DAW is like a fitness studio. And you don’t buy a ludicrously expensive membership card for a fitness studio that gives you access to it forever, with a new, updated membership card released every few years that gives you access to new rooms. You pay for a membership subscription and those guys better keep the facilities clean and well maintained if they want to keep you as a regular customer. :D

Obviously all of this applies only if the price of the subscription is right and fair. It’s legitimate to be pissed off if the subscription model is just a way for the companies to squeeze more cash out of users but I honestly don’t believe this would be the case. If you think a $ 15-20 subscription a month would be a lot of money over ten years of use, try adding the upgrade price of every new version… :lol:

At the end of the day, buying updates and upgrades is the same thing as paying a subscription. It’s just a retarded way of doing it.
I respectfully disagree in the case of Ableton Live

(1) they fix bugs anyway
(2) if the company goes out of business I still have Live to use, it's not gonna suddenly also disappear from my HD. I haven't really found compatibility issues with Windows with Live versions. It just works.

Why is software ownership different than hardware ownership? Just because you cannot physically touch the one? Irrelevant in my opinion. They both perform the same tasks - making music. I buy tools to make music - whether it be a keyboard, guitar, or a DAW.

Why is a DAW like a fitness studio? It is not. It is a music studio. I buy it. It just happens to be software, which can be copied and copied and copied. Maintained of course, but I don't like the analogy at all.

$15-$20/month over 2 years = $360. In pounds, which would at least be £20/month I'd guess, I'm already paying more as Live does not seem to come out more frequently than every 24 months. Sometimes 3 years.

We are not buying updates at the moment. They're free. Unless you mean the next complete version.
I would end up paying more for stuff I don't really need.


EDIT: Although you do have a point about the maintenance. If I bought a music studio I wouldn't expect a bunch of engineers working for free fixing my gear whenever I needed. But then again...if the gear was under a 3 year warranty...hmmmm.
Last edited by tedlogan on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:14 pm

Quez wrote: OS compatibility shouldn't be a matter of paying monthly fees. The current problem with this is Apple breaking and removing features with a totally unnecessary yearly OS X update. It's a marketing tactic to get people to update their hardware/software more frequently and build-in obsolescence. And then you spend more money.
Your logic is flawed. Of course Apple wants to sell. But the reality I see are people keeping their old Macs even as they're getting new ones. Or if they are sold at a great secondhand value they constitute the low-end section of Macs (that Apple seldom caters to) and still typically runs the current OS X version.

That a 64bit only operating system won't run on 32-bit hardware is not "planned obsolescence". It's rather an effect of normal technical evolution.
Make some music!

Quez
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:53 pm
Contact:

Re: New Sonar gone monthly subscription. Might Ableton go same?

Post by Quez » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:29 pm

Stromkraft wrote:Your logic is flawed. Of course Apple wants to sell. But the reality I see are people keeping their old Macs even as they're getting new ones. Or if they are sold at a great secondhand value they constitute the low-end section of Macs (that Apple seldom caters to) and still typically runs the current OS X version.

That a 64bit only operating system won't run on 32-bit hardware is not "planned obsolescence". It's rather an effect of normal technical evolution.
hum well I did mention technological leaps.. :| "Of course when big technological changes happens, well, it happens (for exemple moving from PPC/IBM to Intel processors)"

Post Reply