Live9 very slow with VST plugins...

[golemus]

I have already for a long time complained about the slow performance of Ableton Live with projects that contain a lot of VST plugins. So I thought that I would make a video to illustrate this problem. It is below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZe2o9 ... e=youtu.be




In nutshell, the problem is that with large amount of VST plugins virtually all UI interactions come very sluggish with delay. These are for example:

- drag&drop plugin from browser to a track
- drag&drop a track from one place in arrangement track to another
- delete a track in arrangement view
- delete a plugin in a track
- drag&drop a plugin in a track from one position of the chain to another
- change simpler into drum rack
- cut/copy a portion of arrangement
- paste a portion of arrangement
- open a new project
- close the currently open project
- close ableton live
- drag/drop ableton clips from browser
- drag/drop VST plugins from browser

My computer is:
- Lenovo Thinkpad E530
- i7 quadcore (i7-3632qm) 2.2Ghz
- ivy bridge motherboard
- 16GB DDR3 RAM
- 256GB SSD (Samsung 830)
- 1TB harddrive (nothing there which ableton would use..)
- Windows 7 SP1 with fresh updates
- Ableton Live 9.1.6 64bit version
- NI Komplete Audio 6 (although the problem is there even with soundcard disabled).

Ableton and all the files it uses are on the SSD.


The behavior is pretty much same with 32bit Live9 or 32bit Live8. Currently I have a mixture of 32bit plugs (through latest JBridge) and 64bit plugs, but I did a test project that has only 64-bit plugs and still the same sluggishness..


Now that I have maxed out the performance of my machine and done all optimizations I think that I have proven that the problem is inside Live.

Anyway is somebody knows a solution (other than to wait for an update to fix it) I would be glad to hear it

[Tagor]

i think it is time to go 64 bit with strong CPU and SSD and quick RAM then you get normal performance
also in complex projects

[golemus]

i think it is time to go 64 bit with strong CPU and SSD and quick RAM then you get normal performance
also in complex projects

I am on 64bit, with the strongest possible laptop CPU (well there are faster i7:s but the differences are marginal) and Ableton and all its files installed on SSD (and windows too), with 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM (16GB of it). So there is really no way up.

[biestyboy]

The spec of your laptop looks fine. Are the system drivers for it up to date, particulatly the BIOS, chipset and video drivers. Also, what plugins do you use? As you're using Windows, what does the Performance tab of Task Manager report when you are experiencing this behaviour? Do you have anything else running on your laptop i.e. WiFi, anti virus? Does it still perform sluggish whether it's plugged into the mains or using battery? Have you tweaked Windows 7 to optimise for audio?

[golemus]

The spec of your laptop looks fine. Are the system drivers for it up to date, particulatly the BIOS, chipset and video drivers. Also, what plugins do you use? As you're using Windows, what does the Performance tab of Task Manager report when you are experiencing this behaviour? Do you have anything else running on your laptop i.e. WiFi, anti virus? Does it still perform sluggish whether it's plugged into the mains or using battery? Have you tweaked Windows 7 to optimise for audio?

Yes they are. I use a lot of plugs, Sylenth, Synth1, Zebra, Nexus, Pro-Q, etc...

I have experienced this same behavior with three different computers. Performance Tab of task manager appears as pretty much nothing special is going on. Certainly none of the measures (CPU, RAM) is not even close to being maxed.

I am almost 100% that every single Windows7 Ableton installation has this issue (not sure about OS X though). You can do experiment. Put some VST semi big VST plug to a midi channel, then maybe 2 different VST effects. After this duplicate the channel about 50-80 times. If you then do not get this behavior I would be more than interested.

[Stromkraft]

i think it is time to go 64 bit with strong CPU and SSD and quick RAM then you get normal performance
also in complex projects

I am on 64bit, with the strongest possible laptop CPU (well there are faster i7:s but the differences are marginal) and Ableton and all its files installed on SSD (and windows too), with 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM (16GB of it). So there is really no way up.

You have 32bit only plug-ins that prevent you from using Live 64bit? Because it does seem somewhat likely with a lot of plug-ins you would use more RAM and that lack of addressable RAM could be behind this issue. At the very least wouldn't it be interesting to see if that made a difference?

[golemus]

i think it is time to go 64 bit with strong CPU and SSD and quick RAM then you get normal performance
also in complex projects

I am on 64bit, with the strongest possible laptop CPU (well there are faster i7:s but the differences are marginal) and Ableton and all its files installed on SSD (and windows too), with 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM (16GB of it). So there is really no way up.

You have 32bit only plug-ins that prevent you from using Live 64bit? Because it does seem somewhat likely with a lot of plug-ins you would use more RAM and that lack of addressable RAM could be behind this issue. At the very least wouldn't it be interesting to see if that made a difference?

I use currently both 32 and 64bit plugs (32bit through JBridge), but I did also a test, a project where I use only 64bit plugs, and result was the same sluggishness.

[biestyboy]

The spec of your laptop looks fine. Are the system drivers for it up to date, particulatly the BIOS, chipset and video drivers. Also, what plugins do you use? As you're using Windows, what does the Performance tab of Task Manager report when you are experiencing this behaviour? Do you have anything else running on your laptop i.e. WiFi, anti virus? Does it still perform sluggish whether it's plugged into the mains or using battery? Have you tweaked Windows 7 to optimise for audio?

Yes they are. I use a lot of plugs, Sylenth, Synth1, Zebra, Nexus, Pro-Q, etc...

I have experienced this same behavior with three different computers. Performance Tab of task manager appears as pretty much nothing special is going on. Certainly none of the measures (CPU, RAM) is not even close to being maxed.

I am almost 100% that every single Windows7 Ableton installation has this issue (not sure about OS X though). You can do experiment. Put some VST semi big VST plug to a midi channel, then maybe 2 different VST effects. After this duplicate the channel about 50-80 times. If you then do not get this behavior I would be more than interested.

I've never used anywhere near that many tracks which might explain why I've never experienced your issue despite having a similar spec'd processor. Without testing I imagine 80 instances of Zebra (the only plugin I own from the list you mention) and Fabfilter efx will make my laptop groan. I'll test if I get chance.

[golemus]

The spec of your laptop looks fine. Are the system drivers for it up to date, particulatly the BIOS, chipset and video drivers. Also, what plugins do you use? As you're using Windows, what does the Performance tab of Task Manager report when you are experiencing this behaviour? Do you have anything else running on your laptop i.e. WiFi, anti virus? Does it still perform sluggish whether it's plugged into the mains or using battery? Have you tweaked Windows 7 to optimise for audio?

Yes they are. I use a lot of plugs, Sylenth, Synth1, Zebra, Nexus, Pro-Q, etc...

I have experienced this same behavior with three different computers. Performance Tab of task manager appears as pretty much nothing special is going on. Certainly none of the measures (CPU, RAM) is not even close to being maxed.

I am almost 100% that every single Windows7 Ableton installation has this issue (not sure about OS X though). You can do experiment. Put some VST semi big VST plug to a midi channel, then maybe 2 different VST effects. After this duplicate the channel about 50-80 times. If you then do not get this behavior I would be more than interested.

I've never used anywhere near that many tracks which might explain why I've never experienced your issue despite having a similar spec'd processor. Without testing I imagine 80 instances of Zebra (the only plugin I own from the list you mention) and Fabfilter efx will make my laptop groan. I'll test if I get chance.

The thing is that it does not groan. When I have this many channels they never play all at the same time so not as much CPU is used as you would think. The thing is that even when nothing is playing at all, the machine is still stuttering in all the actions mentioned in the first message.

[yur2die4]

Turn the devices off, and only turn on the ones you will be using. When they are 'on' they are processing things.

I think for that many instances, you might either be better off using racks that have on/off, or using a DAW that is more efficient with vsts. Live is slightly less efficient because of what it is capable of. Some other DAWs would probably let you get a lot closer without having issues.

Also, for clips you may be able to automate vst off/on to save cpu.

But yeah, 50+ instances of active high-level vsts is something that most computers can't handle.

[eddiex]

just to add to what yur2die4 said....you could also bounce your tracks down to audio. you would be surprised by how much weight it takes off of your computer.
yur2die4 is right, just because you CAN have 50+ tracks with vsts (plus probably effects) does not mean ANY computer can handle it.

[H20nly]

^ agreed.

The spec of your laptop looks fine. Are the system drivers for it up to date, particulatly the BIOS, chipset and video drivers. Also, what plugins do you use? As you're using Windows, what does the Performance tab of Task Manager report when you are experiencing this behaviour? Do you have anything else running on your laptop i.e. WiFi, anti virus? Does it still perform sluggish whether it's plugged into the mains or using battery? Have you tweaked Windows 7 to optimise for audio?

Yes they are. I use a lot of plugs, Sylenth, Synth1, Zebra, Nexus, Pro-Q, etc...

I have experienced this same behavior with three different computers. Performance Tab of task manager appears as pretty much nothing special is going on. Certainly none of the measures (CPU, RAM) is not even close to being maxed.

I am almost 100% that every single Windows7 Ableton installation has this issue (not sure about OS X though). You can do experiment. Put some VST semi big VST plug to a midi channel, then maybe 2 different VST effects. After this duplicate the channel about 50-80 times. If you then do not get this behavior I would be more than interested.

one more thought...

you didn't mention anything about your antivirus in your response... commonly, someone would use the same antivirus software on their machines as they are comfortable with it... have you tried disabling it?

i have seen [default] antivirus settings that scan on execute, on writes, and on reads... if any of those is happening it could be crippling your audio performance.

[biestyboy]

So, for a test I started with a blank set with 1 MIDI track with Zebra, Timeless and Volcano. Created a 1 bar clip with one note, then duplicated it 80 times. Surprisingly everything worked fine, pretty much the same as a normal set which, for me, usually consists of no more than 24 tracks. I tried deleting tracks, adding tracks, adding vsts to existing tracks, cut/copy/paste etc, all fine. CPU usage never went above 50% with all tracks playing together and memory usage at 4Gb. For reference I use a laptop with a 3632QM processor and 8Gb RAM and Focusrite 2i2 interface.

[golemus]

^ agreed.

The spec of your laptop looks fine. Are the system drivers for it up to date, particulatly the BIOS, chipset and video drivers. Also, what plugins do you use? As you're using Windows, what does the Performance tab of Task Manager report when you are experiencing this behaviour? Do you have anything else running on your laptop i.e. WiFi, anti virus? Does it still perform sluggish whether it's plugged into the mains or using battery? Have you tweaked Windows 7 to optimise for audio?

Yes they are. I use a lot of plugs, Sylenth, Synth1, Zebra, Nexus, Pro-Q, etc...

I have experienced this same behavior with three different computers. Performance Tab of task manager appears as pretty much nothing special is going on. Certainly none of the measures (CPU, RAM) is not even close to being maxed.

I am almost 100% that every single Windows7 Ableton installation has this issue (not sure about OS X though). You can do experiment. Put some VST semi big VST plug to a midi channel, then maybe 2 different VST effects. After this duplicate the channel about 50-80 times. If you then do not get this behavior I would be more than interested.

one more thought...

you didn't mention anything about your antivirus in your response... commonly, someone would use the same antivirus software on their machines as they are comfortable with it... have you tried disabling it?

i have seen [default] antivirus settings that scan on execute, on writes, and on reads... if any of those is happening it could be crippling your audio performance.

Yes I have Avast antivirus but when I get issues in composing I disable all realtime shields (although the service is still resident). I think I got the same behavior even I still had not installed an antivirus..

[golemus]

So, for a test I started with a blank set with 1 MIDI track with Zebra, Timeless and Volcano. Created a 1 bar clip with one note, then duplicated it 80 times. Surprisingly everything worked fine, pretty much the same as a normal set which, for me, usually consists of no more than 24 tracks. I tried deleting tracks, adding tracks, adding vsts to existing tracks, cut/copy/paste etc, all fine. CPU usage never went above 50% with all tracks playing together and memory usage at 4Gb. For reference I use a laptop with a 3632QM processor and 8Gb RAM and Focusrite 2i2 interface.

OK, this is very valuable information as you have almost exactly the same configuration as I do.

I did the exact same project as you (80 tracks with Zebra, Volcano and Timeless). Then I did these actions (with stuttering), I recorded it with my camera and currently am uploading the recording to youtube (it should be ready this morning).

In this recording I do following (always measuring seconds how long it takes)

- open the project with has 80 zebra,volcano/timeless tracks (all VST plugin UIs closed), and measure opening time.
- delete track and measure
- delete track and measure
- delete 5 tracks and measure
- paint 7 tracks, duplicate and measure
- delete 20 tracks (I think it was 20...?) and measure
- close the project (without saving) and measure


If you can, please return here later today, watch my recording. Do the same measurements on your project and tell me if you get the same delays, or significantly faster delays.

I would be sooo grateful if you help me in this , I have been suffering of this problem for over 5 years and if there is a solution (other than switching DAW) I definitely want to know it.

Regards.