Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:51 pm

I am playing a hi hat track that is high pass filtered up to 2K

On the Master Channel:
The spectrum readout on the EQ8 shows lots of bass activity near -12dB
Placing the Spectrum plugin after the EQ shows the correct information (no activity in bass range all the way to -60dB)
Placing a Voxengo Spectrum after Live's Spectrum also shows the correct information (same as Spectrum).

Conclusion:
The spectral readout built into the EQ8 is wrong.

I posted this before, but whatever.
Do the experiment yourself: roll something up high into the midrange and EQ8's spectrum will
display bass activity all the way down to 30Hz.
Now place the Spectrum plugin after the EQ and it will display the correct spectral readout.

Can you please fix this?

stringtapper
Posts: 6272
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by stringtapper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:52 pm

jasper wrote:Can you please fix this?
Who are you talking to?

:lol:

This is a user forum. If you're trying to tell Ableton that you think you've found a bug and you're actually serious about wanting it fixed then you need to contact their tech support instead of making multiple threads about the same thing.

In any case I don't think there's anything wrong here. Both of the spectrographs are showing the same thing when I look at them. I think you may be confused as to what the amplitude scales for each device are actually representing.

EQ8's scale (12 to -12) denotes the level of amplification or attenuation that is applied to the signal by EQ8's filters, while Spectrum's scale is showing what the actual levels of the signal are when they hit Spectrum's input.

So nothing to fix really. Just understanding what's going on. It is a bit of a quirk in that EQ8's scale is really meant to be understood as relative to the EQ curve and filter dots rather than the spectrograph itself.
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pinkpaint
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Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by pinkpaint » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:02 pm

I think this is a current bug as I noticed myself when tuning kicks that EQ8s spectrum is off and I used vexengo instead thinking I was crazy for thinking abletons EQ8 was reading wrong but upon using vexengo span I saw that my kicks were indeed reading wrong and EQ8 was not showing me the correct information to tune my kicks. I am newer to ableton so I figured maybe the type of spectrum in which EQ8 uses was a different type then voxengos. Anyways, I never thought to try the spectrum plug, which I will next time.

I wonder if its off? Im a noob so don't listen to what I say, Id like to know if an experienced user is noticing this?

stringtapper
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by stringtapper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:13 pm

:|
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jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:26 pm

stringtapper wrote:
jasper wrote:Can you please fix this?
Who are you talking to?

:lol:

This is a user forum. If you're trying to tell Ableton that you think you've found a bug and you're actually serious about wanting it fixed then you need to contact their tech support instead of making multiple threads about the same thing.

In any case I don't think there's anything wrong here. Both of the spectrographs are showing the same thing when I look at them. I think you may be confused as to what the amplitude scales for each device are actually representing.

EQ8's scale (12 to -12) denotes the level of amplification or attenuation that is applied to the signal by EQ8's filters, while Spectrum's scale is showing what the actual levels of the signal are when they hit Spectrum's input.

So nothing to fix really. Just understanding what's going on. It is a bit of a quirk in that EQ8's scale is really meant to be understood as relative to the EQ curve and filter dots rather than the spectrograph itself.

Thanks. Been producing for 20 years. I know what I'm looking at (I don't mean this in a bad way).

It's a hi-hat. It's low-cut up to 1k. the built in spectrum in the EQ8 says there is bass above -12dB.
But the Spectrum plugin placed after the EQ says there is no bass.
They are showing different things. Since the EQ is low-cutting, the Spectrum plugin must be right and the spectrum in the EQ8 must be wrong.

jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:28 pm

pinkpaint wrote:I think this is a current bug as I noticed myself when tuning kicks that EQ8s spectrum is off and I used vexengo instead thinking I was crazy for thinking abletons EQ8 was reading wrong but upon using vexengo span I saw that my kicks were indeed reading wrong and EQ8 was not showing me the correct information to tune my kicks. I am newer to ableton so I figured maybe the type of spectrum in which EQ8 uses was a different type then voxengos. Anyways, I never thought to try the spectrum plug, which I will next time.

I wonder if its off? Im a noob so don't listen to what I say, Id like to know if an experienced user is noticing this?

It's off. I'm an experienced user and I love using Live. But the spectrum inside the EQ8 has something wrong with it.

stringtapper
Posts: 6272
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by stringtapper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:36 pm

jasper wrote:
stringtapper wrote:
jasper wrote:Can you please fix this?
Who are you talking to?

:lol:

This is a user forum. If you're trying to tell Ableton that you think you've found a bug and you're actually serious about wanting it fixed then you need to contact their tech support instead of making multiple threads about the same thing.

In any case I don't think there's anything wrong here. Both of the spectrographs are showing the same thing when I look at them. I think you may be confused as to what the amplitude scales for each device are actually representing.

EQ8's scale (12 to -12) denotes the level of amplification or attenuation that is applied to the signal by EQ8's filters, while Spectrum's scale is showing what the actual levels of the signal are when they hit Spectrum's input.

So nothing to fix really. Just understanding what's going on. It is a bit of a quirk in that EQ8's scale is really meant to be understood as relative to the EQ curve and filter dots rather than the spectrograph itself.

Thanks. Been producing for 20 years. I know what I'm looking at (I don't mean this in a bad way).

It's a hi-hat. It's low-cut up to 1k. the built in spectrum in the EQ8 says there is bass above -12dB.
But the Spectrum plugin placed after the EQ says there is no bass.
They are showing different things. Since the EQ is low-cutting, the Spectrum plugin must be right and the spectrum in the EQ8 must be wrong.
20 years producing or not, I really don't believe you understand what I wrote above. Read it again. The scale on EQ8 is relative to the EQ curve, not the spectrograph itself. Get it?
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stringtapper
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by stringtapper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:40 pm

If what I'm saying wasn't the case then that would mean your hi-hat transients would be peaking above 0dBfs. Think about it.
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jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:45 pm

stringtapper wrote:If what I'm saying wasn't the case then that would mean your hi-hat transients would be peaking above 0dBfs. Think about it.

ok watch:

I'm assuming the readout on the EQ8 is POST EQ. (correct me if that's not what you meant ^up there.)
So if you low cut stuff, the spectrum in the EQ8 should show no bass anymore :)
And if you put a Spectrum plugin after the EQ, it should show no bass anymore.

The EQ8 does show bass frequencies bouncing around down there at -12dB
The Spectrum plugin shows no bass even at -96 dB.

One of them must be incorrect.
(unless I'm missing something or misunderstanding)

Steve Glen
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:17 am
Location: Edmonton Alberta

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by Steve Glen » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:46 pm

I thing what stringtapper is saying, and what I believe, is that EQ8's spectrum is on a different vertical scale than the attenuation/gain scale. The attenuation/gain scale is +-12 dB, the spectrum visualization is much bigger.

jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:48 pm

Steve Glen wrote:I thing what stringtapper is saying, and what I believe, is that EQ8's spectrum is on a different vertical scale than the attenuation/gain scale. The attenuation/gain scale is +-12 dB, the spectrum visualization is much bigger.

Yes Spectrum has a much bigger scale than the built in spectrum in the EQ8.

-12dB is louder than -96dB.
EQ8's readout says "-12dB" even when there is nothing there.
and Spectrum says "-96dB", < accurate.
Voxengo, a third-party spectral analyzer agrees with Spectrum, as does FabFilter Pro-Q.

The EQ8's built in spectrum does not accurately display what is coming out of it.

Steve Glen
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:17 am
Location: Edmonton Alberta

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by Steve Glen » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:04 am

I ment the specturm in EQ8. It is a compressed visualization that is on a different scale than the markings for gain/attenuation. It is an adaptive scale and Ableton has choosen not to print the actual scale.

I will say it again, the +_12 dB Only refers to the gain/attenuation. This is immensely useful because when I'm using EQ8 in 99% of tasks, I want an adaptive equing where I mostly use my ears. If I require specialized specturm analysis.....Hey! there's Spectrum device!


Fixed.

Steve Glen
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:17 am
Location: Edmonton Alberta

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by Steve Glen » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:10 am

Thanks for prompting this discussion, I did get to do some fun experiments

Image

Image

Image

The tone generated from each of these was different from the rest. unexpected.

It appears that autofilter has some sort of limiter built-in? I dunno.... Oh I guess the last because it was getting squished on master limter

jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:24 am

Steve Glen wrote:Thanks for prompting this discussion, I did get to do some fun experiments

Image

Image

Image

The tone generated from each of these was different from the rest. unexpected.

It appears that autofilter has some sort of limiter built-in? I dunno.... Oh I guess the last because it was getting squished on master limter
interesting. lol -> "fun experiments" dude you went nuts with the gain knob on the Utility.

jasper
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:57 am

Re: Spectrum in EQ is not correct

Post by jasper » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:24 am

I like it

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