LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by theophilus » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:33 pm

Grill Pheiss wrote:I'm suprised no one mentioned that the timing of old projects (particularelly heavy ones) is now complettely off in 9.2

some tracks sound audibly and clearly overcompensated when played back in 9.2 versus 9.1, giving a very non musical rush feel that spans un-evenely over individual tracks
this is a pretty basic change. so yeah, a lot of old projects are going to sound different.
would be nice to have a button to allow the old behaviour, but that may not be technically simple.
otherwise, you can just keep 9.1.7 around somewhere for the old sets (you can have multiple versions installed, iirc)...

H20nly
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by H20nly » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:47 pm

crumhorn wrote:
re:dream wrote:In Live 9.3, warping will bend time itself, thus eliminating all latency.
Once they have this perfected they plan to travel back in time and retrospectively introduce it into Live 1. We will all suddenly realize that it was fine all along :)
:lol:

Michael Hatsis
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by Michael Hatsis » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:28 pm

theophilus wrote:
Grill Pheiss wrote:I'm suprised no one mentioned that the timing of old projects (particularelly heavy ones) is now complettely off in 9.2

some tracks sound audibly and clearly overcompensated when played back in 9.2 versus 9.1, giving a very non musical rush feel that spans un-evenely over individual tracks
this is a pretty basic change. so yeah, a lot of old projects are going to sound different.
would be nice to have a button to allow the old behaviour, but that may not be technically simple.
otherwise, you can just keep 9.1.7 around somewhere for the old sets (you can have multiple versions installed, iirc)...
I'm one of the people who never had any issues w pre 9.2 automation compensation. So all of my projects sound pretty much exactly the same in 9.2.
Your talking about automation timing relative to audio right? Nothing else was changed as far as plugin compensation. So, I don't understand why anything else would be different. Can u explain a bit more what your referring to?

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by theophilus » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:28 pm

Michael Hatsis wrote: I'm one of the people who never had any issues w pre 9.2 automation compensation. So all of my projects sound pretty much exactly the same in 9.2.
Your talking about automation timing relative to audio right? Nothing else was changed as far as plugin compensation. So, I don't understand why anything else would be different. Can u explain a bit more what your referring to?
Right... just automation.

automation was out of sync with audio, so that if e.g. you had an automation you intended to take effect right at the second beat, if you had high-latency plugs, it would take effect earlier, let's say, on the first beat instead (although that would be a LOT of latency).

the workaround was to move the automation later by hand... since it was so delayed, you'd draw the automation to take effect on the third beat, and then since it was early by a beat it would finally actually take effect on the second beat like you wanted.

now in 9.2, the ADC is fixed, so now when it sees the automation drawn on the third beat, it actually takes effect on the third beat, which is different.

if live had an option to not compensate automation (i.e. use the old behaviour), then you could load your old set into 9.2 and have it sound the same. but there is a fundamental difference in what writing the automation on beat 3 means in old live vs. new live.

alternately, if live loads a pre-9.2 set into a 9.2+ version, it could do a one-time adjustment of the automation on tracks that have latent plugins. This would require it to be aware of the latencies of each plug (which it knows), that would probably be the best option honestly, if they will do it.

I'm curious if live stores latency information in the saved set, and the version #. If so, then theoretically it might be possible to do this after the fact, on the saved set... would be a bit of a hack.

teknobryan
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by teknobryan » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:33 pm

Is it just me or is the PDC not working. (I'm not talking about the automation). I use some pitch shifter plugins, like a M4L one, and also the U-he pitch shifter, and then my track is out of sync with the rest of the tracks.

pencilrocket
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by pencilrocket » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:05 am

That's already known. Plugins after delay inducing plugin aren't synced to the actual music. They are currently synced to host timing.

Michael Hatsis
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by Michael Hatsis » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:11 am

theophilus wrote:
Michael Hatsis wrote: I'm one of the people who never had any issues w pre 9.2 automation compensation. So all of my projects sound pretty much exactly the same in 9.2.
Your talking about automation timing relative to audio right? Nothing else was changed as far as plugin compensation. So, I don't understand why anything else would be different. Can u explain a bit more what your referring to?
Right... just automation.

automation was out of sync with audio, so that if e.g. you had an automation you intended to take effect right at the second beat, if you had high-latency plugs, it would take effect earlier, let's say, on the first beat instead (although that would be a LOT of latency).

the workaround was to move the automation later by hand... since it was so delayed, you'd draw the automation to take effect on the third beat, and then since it was early by a beat it would finally actually take effect on the second beat like you wanted.

now in 9.2, the ADC is fixed, so now when it sees the automation drawn on the third beat, it actually takes effect on the third beat, which is different.

if live had an option to not compensate automation (i.e. use the old behaviour), then you could load your old set into 9.2 and have it sound the same. but there is a fundamental difference in what writing the automation on beat 3 means in old live vs. new live.

alternately, if live loads a pre-9.2 set into a 9.2+ version, it could do a one-time adjustment of the automation on tracks that have latent plugins. This would require it to be aware of the latencies of each plug (which it knows), that would probably be the best option honestly, if they will do it.

I'm curious if live stores latency information in the saved set, and the version #. If so, then theoretically it might be possible to do this after the fact, on the saved set... would be a bit of a hack.

yes, I understand how everything works. Again, never been affected by the way Live's Compensation worked pre Live 9.2. The post by Grill made it seem like timing is way off for more things than automation. Just making sure he understood what has actually changed as lots of people don't really understand the issue at hand. No offense meant if he does.

teknobryan
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by teknobryan » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:39 am

pencilrocket wrote:That's already known. Plugins after delay inducing plugin aren't synced to the actual music. They are currently synced to host timing.
ok, but even if I put a pitch shifter as the last device, it's still not synced to the rest of the tracks anymore.

theophilus
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by theophilus » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Michael Hatsis wrote:yes, I understand how everything works. Again, never been affected by the way Live's Compensation worked pre Live 9.2. The post by Grill made it seem like timing is way off for more things than automation. Just making sure he understood what has actually changed as lots of people don't really understand the issue at hand. No offense meant if he does.
ahh, sorry... misunderstood. yeah, PDC should (hopefully) act as it always did. if you (meaning someone else reading this really, since you seem to know what's what here) do see issues, probably worth checking first to make sure live sees the device's latency correctly.

actually, for beat synced effects though, even though it's not fully fixed, it is better in a lot of cases (because zero-latency effects no longer add audio buffer latency), so maybe it's related to that.

vinz89
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by vinz89 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:58 pm

What i find really strange with the way ableton deals with PDC is that the soft doesn't seem to have clock sync delay compensation.
Unlike other DAW with full PDC, Live doesn't compensate it's internal clock when dealing with lantency inducing plug-ins, therefore, when yo press play, the playhead starts immediately, even if the audio is delay compensated, leading to a complete GUI mess...

Do you think that's why tempo synced devices are not delay compensated?

Cheers
Vinz

Airyck
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by Airyck » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:30 pm

To correctly use PDC the audio has to stop, be adjusted, and re-start again anytime a latency inducing plugin is introduced. This causes breaks in the audio which is definitely not ideal in a live performance situation. I'm guessing they have been trying to figure out how to deal with that since they don't want gaps in the audio playback but it's really not possible IMO.
Ableton Live 10 Suite / Push 2 / Max 8 /

The Phat Conductor
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by The Phat Conductor » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:08 am

OMFG the plugin delay compensation is SO AMAZING!!!

FINALLY!!!

I am A:Bing between two versions of Ableton on the new track I'm working on and it is just CRAZY!
ill gates aka the phat conductor
producer, performer + ableton/music teacher

http://www.illgates.com

pencilrocket
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by pencilrocket » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:40 am

Airyck wrote:To correctly use PDC the audio has to stop, be adjusted, and re-start again anytime a latency inducing plugin is introduced. This causes breaks in the audio which is definitely not ideal in a live performance situation. I'm guessing they have been trying to figure out how to deal with that since they don't want gaps in the audio playback but it's really not possible IMO.
It happens either way because delay dynamically changes in some plugins. Your goal can be achieved in specific situation. In most cases, Don't touch delay inducing plugin chain or Audio drop.

Airyck
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by Airyck » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:19 pm

The Phat Conductor wrote:OMFG the plugin delay compensation is SO AMAZING!!!

FINALLY!!!

I am A:Bing between two versions of Ableton on the new track I'm working on and it is just CRAZY!
Can you elaborate?

I'm just waiting for the final version to come out, haven't installed the beta due to space constraints on my laptop.
Ableton Live 10 Suite / Push 2 / Max 8 /

Grill Pheiss
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Re: LIVE 9.2b1 Discuss....

Post by Grill Pheiss » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:23 pm

Michael Hatsis wrote:
theophilus wrote:
Grill Pheiss wrote:I'm suprised no one mentioned that the timing of old projects (particularelly heavy ones) is now complettely off in 9.2

some tracks sound audibly and clearly overcompensated when played back in 9.2 versus 9.1, giving a very non musical rush feel that spans un-evenely over individual tracks
this is a pretty basic change. so yeah, a lot of old projects are going to sound different.
would be nice to have a button to allow the old behaviour, but that may not be technically simple.
otherwise, you can just keep 9.1.7 around somewhere for the old sets (you can have multiple versions installed, iirc)...
I'm one of the people who never had any issues w pre 9.2 automation compensation. So all of my projects sound pretty much exactly the same in 9.2.
Your talking about automation timing relative to audio right? Nothing else was changed as far as plugin compensation. So, I don't understand why anything else would be different. Can u explain a bit more what your referring to?
Ok SO it seems to be related to the new Complex and Complex pro algorythms more than the PDC stuff per say.

what i'm observing when playing back a problem free, "track heavy" BUT "plugin light" 9.1 project in 9.2 :

1) at first playback is pretty chaotic, almost like if 9.2 needed to finish loading some data in order for everything to play right. After a couple of start stop start stop, the audio seems to settle.

2) REGARDLESS OF THE PRECEDING, the tracks that are using COMPLEX AND COMPLEX PRO (migration by default towards the new algorythms in 9.2) are completelly off time, mostly playing back early by enough ms to completelly throw the feel and groove of the whole song off.

This is systematic

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