Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
eyeknow
Posts: 5822
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:16 am

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by eyeknow » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:07 am

Oh god......tom again? :facepalm:

@tuner: Though I'm out of the live game (right around monday/tuesday) I'm really glad they added this. MANY upon MANY guitarist/bassists use live every day. Many amp sim software DOESN'T provide a tuner. Live should have done this long ago.

Applaud for live 9.2!

TomViolenz
Posts: 6854
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Lets Talk Tuner

Post by TomViolenz » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:35 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
re:dream wrote:Tom, you made a statement that implied Altiverb's high price was just brand exploitation.

Machines pointed out that developing Altiverb had actually cost them a lot of money, and that is another reason why their reverb is so expensive.
Which I agreed with and gave my reasons why not to everyone that aspect needs to matter.
But he couldn't leave it at that.
I really don't see why this needs to become another huge argument
Me neither, but Machines seems to think differently.
The failure to be civil here is all you. There isn't anything you can say ad hominem wise to change that.

Again, all convolution reverbs are pretty much the same on some levels, so my point was and is that the impulse response they come with are a huge factor in their worth. I wouldn't replace a convolution reverb with one that doesn't do anything more than what I have already. All you had to do to remain civil was reply that your main reason is not liking M4L.... or some other reply that does't involve personal attacks.

I like how this is now an argument? really? You simply must be carrying bad feelings around from other threads if that's the case.

well just check your arrogant writing style and actually read what you are responding to and then you won't give of the impression that you purposefully disregard what other people actually wrote just so that you can take a dig at them.
You would see that I not only agreed with you, but pretty much made the same point (just that this leads me to the opposite conclusion = I don't need Altiverb).



And seriously ad homs are your forte :x (ESL anyone?! :roll: )

TomViolenz
Posts: 6854
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Lets Talk Tuner

Post by TomViolenz » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:38 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
re:dream wrote: Has someone been able to quantify how much extra CPU burden an M4L device adds, as opposed to a native device?
That's easy to test no?!

Just put 10 or 20 of these LFOs in your set and compare just the non running LFOs numbers to before.

Now do the same with Utilities or SimpleDelays etc.

The differences are staggering even on a i7 MBP.
I did a very simple testing of Convolution Reverb vs Waves IR1 in november with third party IRs and to my surprise they seemed to tax my CPU about the same. What can surprise me a bit is that MFL device CPU requirements varies much more than what VST plugins do. I have to assume then that it is a sliding scale depending on actual processing.
I can believe that
But I would like to see similar numbers for the LFO

In my opinion: no one expects a convo reverb to be particularly light, so the M4L overhead is easier to hide. While a LFO should be as light as an Utility or a SimpleDelay. Which M4L makes all but impossible.

stringtapper
Posts: 6266
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Lets Talk Tuner

Post by stringtapper » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:54 pm

TomViolenz wrote:And seriously ad homs are your forte :x (ESL anyone?! :roll: )
Holy shit when the hell are you going to comprehend that

1. I'm the one who made the ESL comment first, and that

2. It was a serious question as to whether there was some language barrier thing going on that was causing confusion in the discussion.

Do you just actively work at misunderstanding people and assuming the worst of their intentions?

Jesus.
Unsound Designer

Machinesworking
Posts: 11077
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Lets Talk Tuner

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:05 am

stringtapper wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:And seriously ad homs are your forte :x (ESL anyone?! :roll: )
Holy shit when the hell are you going to comprehend that

1. I'm the one who made the ESL comment first, and that

2. It was a serious question as to whether there was some language barrier thing going on that was causing confusion in the discussion.

Do you just actively work at misunderstanding people and assuming the worst of their intentions?

Jesus.
I think he does. The real reason he has a problem here is I've attacked him for attacking other members of this forum in unrelated threads. Basically certain personality types when confronted with someone pointing out a social flaw of theirs will do whatever it takes to hold a grudge, including in this case the exact negative personality pattern that I pointed out!

It's actually quite hilarious, Tom attacks people on these forums constantly, pointing out some shitty little argument they had in unrelated threads and I ask him to stop, you call him ESL a long time ago, and I at some point think maybe that's why he has issues? because I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that it could be ESL, his lack of ability to get along with other people here, and he takes offense, absolutely will not let it go and decides to use it at every opportunity to claim I'm ad hominem attacking him.... the level of narcissism in that is kind of impressive. He can't see his own issues because he's too busy defending his flaws from attack by doing the very flawed behavior patterns that gets him the negative attention in the first place.

re:dream
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by re:dream » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:04 am

So why do you keep on tryina point it out to him? He ain't ever going to admit it, yet you keep going at it.

Image

In my view, the only way to treat negativity in Internet forums such as this one is to ignore it. Pointing it out, even if you are right and the other person is wrong, almost never resolves matters. Even reasonable people become quite petty; and when you are dealing folk who have issues, then it's even worse. You just get a shitstorm that goes on and on and on.

stringtapper
Posts: 6266
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by stringtapper » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:31 am

Maybe there's a M4L device that can facilitate dealing with negative forum posters.

The Forum Tuner…?

:x
Unsound Designer

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Lets Talk Tuner

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:27 am

Angstrom wrote:got asked a page or two ago. Can you tune a kick drum with
yes,
here I'm using the histogram view, but you could use the other one.
I see that Ableton's 808 kick wasn't actually in tune and because the Pitch Macro is semitones that's no help ... so I used Simpler's Detune -26cents to put it in tune.[/quote]

That was actually the first application for the Tuner I was thinking of. Of course in general when doing your own samples, tuning the root correctly is vital.

Now I just have to figure out how I want my drums to be tuned in a specific song and what overtones to bring out.
Make some music!

re:dream
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by re:dream » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:11 am

It's kind of heartening. I have been tuning my drum by transposing them 3 octaves, tweaking, and then transposing down again. Tuner tells me I am correct most times, plus or minus 20 cents. I am pleased :mrgreen:

re:dream
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am
Location: Hoerikwaggo's sunset side...
Contact:

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by re:dream » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:15 am

stringtapper wrote:Maybe there's a M4L device that can facilitate dealing with negative forum posters.

The Forum Tuner…?

:x
In South Africa, tuning someone is to tell them off in no uncertain terms. "I tuned that oke, if he gives me more kak, I will sommer lekker moer him one time."

H20nly
Posts: 15834
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by H20nly » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:59 pm

Image

deaddisneyy
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:17 pm
Location: NY/Amsterdam

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by deaddisneyy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:38 pm

I was checking out tuner and was thinking it would be great to have a button that would enable slight pitch shifter functionality (within one semitone) to allow you to easily compensate for slightly out of tune parts without having to dive into the instrument/synth itself. I get that this is silly for guitars maybe, but for drums/synths it would be useful? Just a thought :/

brettonwoodsapocalypse
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:22 pm

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by brettonwoodsapocalypse » Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:48 am

IT's true that M4L has added a lot of instability into the system and it doesn't really have the same simplicity as Live. Personally I expect more features dedicated to making music... live rather than production where other seq are better (protools, logic, sonar, DP...). Djs in particular have seen nothing new and things like Traktor with their sample pads start to really look like live but also have the flexibility to paly a track and have fun doing real time remixes. M4L seems to be the way for Ableton to stop inovating more with the built-in modules. I dream of a new view where I could patch modules together, Reason style, and have M4l part of these. I still don't understand why in L9 browser when I browse effects I don't have access to M4L effects.
More integration would be really a interesting path to follow

tecolo
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:21 pm

Re: Lets Talk Tuner

Post by tecolo » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:55 am

Michael Hatsis wrote:Ableton is great
Max is great
Max for Live fails

I was one of the people who were very excited when MFL was coming into fruition. Was on the Beta team and stuff. U can't even imagine how buggy it was back then. I couldn't believe they released it when they did as it was just a huge crash fest - even with the few devices it came with.

My big problem with MFL is that there is nothing that guarantees a few years down the line, that a .als w some MFL devices in it will open and then sound exactly the same, and have all of its modulations and linked parameters still mapped. Also, when you crash, lots of times parameters get unlinked, which basically means you lose work.
I have learned that you cannot rely on these MFL devices. Anytime you upgrade anything - ableton, your OS, MFL, Java, you are risking that these things will get messed up.
Ableton is marketing MFL like it is part of Live and that MFL Devices 'act and look just like native ableton devices' which is bad info. They boast about the "New Convolution Reverb"( which is quite possibly one of the most impressive max patches i have ever seen ) that comes with Ableton Suite - and Ableton feel that these MFL toys satisfy user requests for things like LFOs, Envelopes, Modulation tools....they use MFL as a crutch - "Oh, just use MFL to do that" - when in truth, MFL devices and workarounds don't count and are unusable for the reasons I just mentioned.
Their new users are in for a nasty surprise when they open a set later on down the line and everything is off and all those nice convolution reverbs they set up are off or don't work.

Like I said, Max is a great tool, Live is a great tool, MFL is unusable unlesss you want to do alot of freezing, bouncing and resampling, which is a workflow killer in this situation.
Kinda exactly my concern...

eyeknow
Posts: 5822
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:16 am

Re: Lets Talk Tuner ... and then a lot about M4L

Post by eyeknow » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:46 am

I still don't understand why people have hate towards a tuner (and I've seen it over and over at all forums for a long time)

Post Reply