Java now comes with adware

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Vance
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:35 am

Java now comes with adware

Post by Vance » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:45 am

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/05/ask ... -java-mac/

I'd say this creates a HUGE disincentive to use software that relies on Java... Ableton devs - is there a future for M4L users that doesn't require us to install adware?

stringtapper
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by stringtapper » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:12 am

It's good to know, but also not unavoidable.
The Java installer selects the option to install the Ask extension by default, which means that users casually clicking through the dialogue boxes would find the extension installed and enabled on their browser of choice. Oracle has also updated its installation instructions for Mac to account for the change.
Unsound Designer

hacktheplanet
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Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:37 am
Location: Chicago, IL
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Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by hacktheplanet » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:35 am

One can only dream of a world without Java.
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Da hand
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Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Da hand » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:57 am

Vance wrote:http://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/05/ask ... -java-mac/

I'd say this creates a HUGE disincentive to use software that relies on Java... Ableton devs - is there a future for M4L users that doesn't require us to install adware?
It only installs the adware if you let it do so. If you uncheck the option for the adware, it won't install it. It's been like that on Windows for years. So in the end... not much changes really for M4L.

pencilrocket
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Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:08 am

poor bitwig :(

Muze
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Muze » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:08 am

Vance wrote:http://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/05/ask ... -java-mac/

I'd say this creates a HUGE disincentive to use software that relies on Java... Ableton devs - is there a future for M4L users that doesn't require us to install adware?
I don't have Java installed but M4L is working for me.

Muze
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Muze » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:09 am

pencilrocket wrote:poor bitwig :(
It's not a problem for Bitwig, it doesn't rely on Java runtime being installed as it comes with its own.

Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:25 pm

Muze wrote:
Vance wrote:http://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/05/ask ... -java-mac/

I'd say this creates a HUGE disincentive to use software that relies on Java... Ableton devs - is there a future for M4L users that doesn't require us to install adware?
I don't have Java installed but M4L is working for me.
On some platforms, like OS X Yosemite, Max For Live will require Java even as it doesn't really depend on it. It's only certain devices that depend on Java.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:28 pm

Vance wrote:http://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/05/ask ... -java-mac/

I'd say this creates a HUGE disincentive to use software that relies on Java... Ableton devs - is there a future for M4L users that doesn't require us to install adware?
I've installed Java since forever and I have never ever had to deinstall shite like that. Guess why.

The current situation is that you must install Java 6 on the platforms where Max For Live asks for Java explicitly even when it doesn't need it, which is stupid in itself but also means this issue is non-existent as far as Max For Live is concerned.
Make some music!

Muze
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Muze » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:42 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
Muze wrote:
Vance wrote:http://www.macrumors.com/2015/03/05/ask ... -java-mac/

I'd say this creates a HUGE disincentive to use software that relies on Java... Ableton devs - is there a future for M4L users that doesn't require us to install adware?
I don't have Java installed but M4L is working for me.
On some platforms, like OS X Yosemite, Max For Live will require Java even as it doesn't really depend on it. It's only certain devices that depend on Java.
OK why on Yosemite but not Mavericks (which is what I'm on)?

Stromkraft
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Re: Java now comes with adware

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:46 pm

Muze wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
OK why on Yosemite but not Mavericks (which is what I'm on)?
I didn't say anything on what specific platforms. You have to ask Cycling74. All of this with java dependency was unclear from what I've read in these forums until I asked their support. I pointed out that if Java actually is a requirement for MFL then the literature like their web site should list that as an actual requirement.

The support explained back to me that
"Max uses Java 6 on Mac in the mxj object as a way of extending the functionality of Max, and a number of Max for Live developers make use of it."
and they also told that Ableton approached Cycling74 about switching off the Java dependency for an earlier revision and that this actually caused a bunch of issues for users and that's at least one reason why there is a java dependency in practice currently.

They also reminded me that
"The Java options in max and MFL are controlled by the file max.java.config.txt, which is in your Max 6 application folder and subfolder /Cycling '74/java/max.java.config.txt"
It would seem I got them thinking a bit about how to handle dependencies — Support stated that my message "sparked a very useful conversation about the limitations of our Java implementation" — but I do understand it's a delicate problem techwise.

At least this is true up until when Ableton soon drops support for Windows XP, OS X 10.5 and 10.6 in Live 9.2. Java 1.7 runs on Windows Vista SP2 and later as well as on OS X 10.7.3 and later. At least on OS X java 1.6 and 1.7 are quite different in implementation, so dropping 1.6 would likely solve some issues. Max 7 requires "Intel® Mac with Mac OS X 10.7 (or later), OR a PC with Windows 7" so this should work for Cycling74 as well from MFL 1.7 and onwards.

IMHO Cycling74 should
  • Clearly state Java as a requirement as long as it is
  • Attempt once more to phase out java, only adding it when a device needs it.
  • drop Java 1.6 alltogether in Max 6.1.10
  • Supply the JVM themselves as most developers do when it is indeed needed and not rely on the platform
Make some music!

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