Some new dither examples

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Tarekith
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Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:44 am

Image

A few years ago I produced some audio examples of different types of dither, so that people could more easily hear what dither does and what a couple of different dithering options sound like. As there are even more options for dithering algorithms these days, I figured it was time to update my examples and talk a little bit about what seems to be one of the more confusing aspects of music production for people. You can download all of the audio examples and graphs I’ll be talking about here:

http://innerportalstudio.com/new-dither-examples/

For these examples, I used a 24bit sample of a ride cymbal with some reverb applied. I then converted this to 16bit wav files in various DAWs using the dithering options they offer. Specifically:

- Rectangular, Triangular, POW-r1, POW-r2, POW-r3 from Ableton Live 9.

- The only dithering option in Presonus Studio One.

- UV22HR from Apple Logic Pro X, though it also offers the same POW-r options that Live does.

- Goodhertz dithering from Audiofile Engineering Triumph.

In addition, I also created a 16bit wav file version using no dithering at all, this is called truncating.

The next step was to cut off the all but the very end of the reverb tails of these files, and normalize the remaining portion to -0.5dBFS. This was done because dither noise is extremely quiet, with all but it’s very peaks around -96dBFS, well below the noise floor of most playback equipment. Boosting only the tails of the audio files allowed me to raise the overall level of the files to make the dither noise itself audible at normal listening volumes. These files are located in the folder called “Dithered Ride Tails”.

I recommend listening to the truncated version first, so you can hear what it is we’re trying to achieve with dithering in the first place. At the very end of the truncated sample, you can hear what sounds like digital noise as the least significant bit toggles on and off trying to replicate the very quiet end of the reverb fading out to silence. By adding dither noise, we make this last little bit of fade out much smoother and more natural sounding, at the expense of a very tiny bit of noise.

Remember, in these examples I’ve boosted this noise A LOT just to make it audible, in normal use, it’s so quiet as to be almost completely inaudible. Plus there’s some tricks with dithering to reduce how much of it we hear even more, which I’ll talk about shortly.

I included the full length ride samples without trimming or normalizing as well, in case anyone wants them to hear how dither sounds in more real world situation. You’ll find them in the folder called “Original Rides”. Though I highly doubt that many people will be able to hear the dither at all, even on what is arguably one of these best examples for demonstrating it’s purpose. It’s just extremely quiet, just imagine trying to hear it on a full mix!

In addition to the ride cymbal sample, I also created a 24bit sample of nothing but silence. This was also converted to 16bit using the above dithering options, but in this case it was so I could provide FFT analyzer images of just the dithering noise itself for visual comparison. I used DMG Audio’s Dualism plug-in for the FFT analysis. The scale was set from 20Hz to 20kHz, and from 0 to -144dBFS (effectively 24bits) to make the shape of the dithering algorithms easier to see. Keep in mind that a 16bit file has only a range to -96dBFS when you look at the graphs, so anything below that will be discarded. All the graphs are unsurprisingly located in the folder labeled “Graphs”, and you can see them on my site:

http://innerportalstudio.com/new-dither-examples/

Why are they shaped differently? That’s one of the tricks I mentioned earlier, and it’s called noise-shaping. Rather boring and predictable name, I know. Since our ear is most sensitive around the 2kHz range, the dither noise in the various algorithms is created to be stronger in the frequencies away from this sensitive area. Most of the time it’s boosted way up by 20kHz, beyond the range of most human hearing, but the actual shape and slope of the boost varies depending the algorithm.

Each manufacturer has what they consider the ideal way of doing this, sometimes, in the case of POW-r, with different options for different kinds of music. You can hear this in the subtle tonality of the noise in some of the different dither examples, as well as seeing the exact shape in the graphs I provided. Some of the options like Ableton’s Triangular and Rectangular dithers are almost perfectly flat, however that doesn't mean they are less effective.

Ideally this gives the producer the flexibility to choose the dithering that best suits their material on a song by song basis. But again, this noise is so incredibly quiet that for most music, you’ll never hear it. Which is ideal anyway, as dither was created to be as inaudible as possible in the first place. I’ll admit that as a mastering engineer, even I rarely audition different dithers, since with most material there’s no audible difference anyway.

Once in awhile I’ll get a very dynamic song with lots of quiet passages, certain ambient or even orchestral songs fit this category. In those cases I might try out a few different dithering options, though even then the differences can be almost impossible to hear, even in my studio.

The point of all this is make you realize that while dithering does fulfill a useful role in the audio production process, it’s arguably the least important aspect and isn’t something people should worry too much about. Certainly add dither if you can when you’re rendering your mixdown or master to a 16bit file at the end of the writing process, but don’t lose sleep over which dithering option is the best. The differences are incredibly subtle, even to those people with well-trained hearing, and in almost all cases the dither is so far below the noise floor of any playback chain that no one will hear what dither you used, or even if you used it at all.

I hope this helped you not only understand why we use dither, but also highlight some of the differences in the various options available to us.

Peace and beats,
Tarekith

Tarekith
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:37 pm

Someone on the audiobus forum asked for a graph of Pro-L's dither too, here's that one if anyone is curious:

http://postimg.org/image/kqe6aqz27/

Angstrom
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Angstrom » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:11 pm

That is a weird way to spend your time! Interesting, but weird. :lol:

My thought: I assume that all the shaped noise dithers are randomisations above the truncation point with the randomisation shaped to various EQ curves, like an inverted fletcher munson.
If I was testing the noise shaped dithers I'd feed either a pure sine in, or pure white noise rather than a signal which was already shaped noise (because rides are quite tonal). I may be wrong in my understanding and in no way suggest you do it again.

The other thing that amuses me about dithering in the real world is that modern dance producers can obsess about it. Yet - the truncation point of a 16bit file is somewhere around -96db if I remember right. So truncation would usually heard on reverb tails in quite minimal music when the lush expensive verb tails down to -96. Meanwhile, everyone is still turning their EDM audio into bricklike slabs of sound with a dynamic range extending from a clipping 0 all the way down to -6db. The only place most producers would encounter -96 is on the last microsecond of their outro fade.
I'm aware this is an extreme example, but still. It's an irony. The care over a dynamic range they never ever touch.

yur2die4
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:27 pm

I think you want something dynamic so you can see how it addresses change in material.
Something like a sine tone doesn't change in amplitude or introduce complex information to be resolved.

Or in another way,
A sine tone would be like a painting of two squares, one red, one green, directly next to each other. Image dithering would have little to no influence on that image. Well, it would but it wouldn't take advantage of te strengths of dithering.

Where as if you took a photo of trees in a misty forest, the pure, but-for-bit digital version might leave some room for improvement, but dithering could really let the image come through in a more natural appearance.

Mist = reverb, trees = cymbal crash

Angstrom
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Angstrom » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:30 pm

I meant a pure sine which faded down through the truncation point, because it has no harmonics all we'd see is what the dither did to the fundamental . In the case of the broad band noise - we'd only see the eq shaping.

To my mind if you feed coloured noise in, the coloured noise you get out is not too informative.

Like this
Image

its better to feed in a 50% grey

Tarekith
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:46 pm

That is a weird way to spend your time! Interesting, but weird. :lol:

>>> It actually came about because someone on the Seattle Live User's group was asking why Live included so many kinds of dither. By the time I made a few examples to show the difference, I decided it was better to throw a few more examples into the mix and post it on my blog rather than let all that time go wasted :) <<<

My thought: I assume that all the shaped noise dithers are randomisations above the truncation point with the randomisation shaped to various EQ curves, like an inverted fletcher munson. If I was testing the noise shaped dithers I'd feed either a pure sine in, or pure white noise rather than a signal which was already shaped noise (because rides are quite tonal). I may be wrong in my understanding and in no way suggest you do it again.

>>> The reason I use the ride/reverb example is because it's the best I've found that shows what quantization noise sounds like. If you truncate a pure sine wav sweep to 16bit, the signal just suddenly cuts out completely instantly. You don't get that complex digital chattering sound that you get with more complex signals. Running the same ride sample through the dither just shows how it no longer does this, it's not so much to "test" any dither as it is to compare with the truncated version. <<<

The other thing that amuses me about dithering in the real world is that modern dance producers can obsess about it. The only place most producers would encounter -96 is on the last microsecond of their outro fade. I'm aware this is an extreme example, but still. It's an irony. The care over a dynamic range they never ever touch.

>>> Honestly I couldn't agree more. It's the very least important aspect of anything that has to do with music, and yet people debate it ad naseum like it actually makes a difference (other than on paper). Worse are those who claim they can really hear a difference at any sort of real world volume on a complex mix. If it was up to me, this sort of thing could be handled behind the scenes by apps, they would just apply triangular dither when appropriate and no one would ever have to worry about it. I like that Studio One just has this buried in a preference, it's on by default and there's no settings. That's the way it should be.

That was the point I was trying to get across in the end of the article. If you're curious what it is, it's good to understand it. But it's not something anyone really needs to put much thought in, especially if you're already limiting your song merely for the sake of more volume. Regardless of the genre of music it is. <<<

Angstrom
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Angstrom » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:24 pm

Do you have a article on "when should I dither?", if so you ought to link it from that article.
If not then I guess you've got a follow on article to write ;-)

Tarekith
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:33 pm

I was going to write more about dithering, but one minute I wanted to, and the next I didn't. Then I wanted to again, but decided maybe I should wait.

Angstrom
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Angstrom » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:47 pm

I can see how that might happen.

Ok, one more suggestion : On April 1st write an article about the new type of dithering you have designed called Schrödither, where the truncation point is held in an indeterminate state which is neither 0 nor 1, a superposition. The bit is neither alive nor dead until it is observed.

su
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by su » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:44 pm

Tarekith wrote:I was going to write more about dithering, but one minute I wanted to, and the next I didn't. Then I wanted to again, but decided maybe I should wait.
saw what you did there.

:wink:

Tarekith
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:51 pm

:wink:

timday
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by timday » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:10 pm

On the same thing there's a quite interesting comparison here http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/dither/#samples
It's a few years old and from the people that do Extrabit, so may be a little biased, but contains a lot of the common algorithms (POW-r, Waves, etc)as well as TPDF. They've done it from 16 to 12 bit to bring out the differences. I use this when teaching about noise shaping. Has some good pics of the noise shaping spectra as well here http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/dither/dither.htm

The audio examples use a string hit that tails away. Interestingly it isn't just the reverb tail, some of the transients of the hits are noticeably different, especially where the noise shaping leaves too much in at 8 KHz the hit itself can sound noticeably harsh to my ears.

The other interesting thing (although not entirely unexpected) is that noise shaping algorithms with a lot of dither noise over about 14 KHz sound better to me, because I'm quite old and can't hear much above that frequency, whereas my (mostly teenage) students tend to prefer algorithms with less noise over 14 KHz at the expense of more noise lower down. We figure that if you can hear the noise over 14KHz at all, it's more irritating.

Edit - This is all at 12 bit of course so all the stuff about not really hearing anything at -96 still applies, the noise on these examples is considerably louder than that.
Last edited by timday on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tarekith
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:15 pm

One thing another mastering engineer pointed out to me, is that shaped noise dithering is different from noise shaping too. Noise shaping is where you are doing truncation without any dither, but shaping the truncation artifacts. I'll admit, the maths involved go over my head so I won't even try to explain, just thought I would point that out (and I corrected my article).

Noise shaping and noise shaped dither are two different processes, though they both aim to push the noise out of the critical band of listening around 2kHz.

Steve Glen
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Steve Glen » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:30 pm

Very cool!

I've been wondering about Izotope's Ozone dithering options as well. Is that something you could add to the mix of comparisons?

Tarekith
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Re: Some new dither examples

Post by Tarekith » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:16 am

I don't have Ozone, but it uses the same MBIT+ dither that Triumph uses I believe. I'll see what I can do this week when I get some free time. Thanks for reading!

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