KORG ER-1 & Ableton Live 9 - Midi timing

[Daniel_S]

Can anyone tell me if this is the way it is or whether there's something I'm doing wrong?

Out the box, the ER-1's midi timing is way off with Live 9.

So I quickly beatmatch the two which adjusting the MIDI timing within Live's MIDI preferences tab until they are synced up perfectly.

Only now the sequence lights on the ER-1 are way out of time (not a huge deal TBH).

It will stay in time for the duration of my session, however when returning to my project a day later or so, the timing is way off again (even though it's still at the MIDI timing I'd set the day previous).

So I have to manually beatmatch the two again with new timings before I continue working on my track.

Is this is way it is or is there something I'm not doing right or something I need to sort this out?

FWIW - I'm running the ER-1 as a slave to Live 9. The ER-1's MIDI in is connected to my NI Audio 8 MIDI out. I do not have any MIDI going out of the ER-1.

Any help and advice on this matter would be much appreciated

Cheers

[Richie Witch]

You don't mention if you set the ER-1's clock to internal or external.

On mine, I can adjust the tempo inside Ableton and hear the ER-1 speed up or slow down the beat it's playing. Is your set up behaving the same way?

[Daniel_S]

You don't mention if you set the ER-1's clock to internal or external.

On mine, I can adjust the tempo inside Ableton and hear the ER-1 speed up or slow down the beat it's playing. Is your set up behaving the same way?

Yes the ER-1's clock is set to External - I can select any of the preset patterns and after sometime adjusting the timings, they will all stay in time with whatever Live's tempo is.

How have you got your ER-1 setup with Live exactly?

[Richie Witch]

Clock signal from Ableton to a MOTU MIDI Express XT, via USB. The ER-1 is connected to the MOTU via 5-pin DIN (both IN and OUT).

Audio is connected from the ER-1 to two channels on my mixer, which then runs into the PC via Firewire. I have an External Instrument preset for the ER-1 that routes MIDI out and audio in.

If I record audio into Ableton, there is 7 ms of latency on the beat, but if I snip a little piece off the recorded audio, the beats line up perfectly with the timeline/tempo grid.

If I'm just having the ER-1 follow Ableton's clock and jamming with some other instrument via MIDI keyboard, the tempo of the ER-1 is perfect (to my ear).

I've never had it wander off the beat, or worse, had to fiddle with it, to get it on the beat. It always just follows the clock signal from Ableton.

[Daniel_S]

Clock signal from Ableton to a MOTU MIDI Express XT, via USB. The ER-1 is connected to the MOTU via 5-pin DIN (both IN and OUT).

Audio is connected from the ER-1 to two channels on my mixer, which then runs into the PC via Firewire. I have an External Instrument preset for the ER-1 that routes MIDI out and audio in.

If I record audio into Ableton, there is 7 ms of latency on the beat, but if I snip a little piece off the recorded audio, the beats line up perfectly with the timeline/tempo grid.

If I'm just having the ER-1 follow Ableton's clock and jamming with some other instrument via MIDI keyboard, the tempo of the ER-1 is perfect (to my ear).

I've never had it wander off the beat, or worse, had to fiddle with it, to get it on the beat. It always just follows the clock signal from Ableton.

Thanks for this, I'll trying connecting both the IN and OUT of the ER-1 to my soundcard and will also set the ER-1 up through an External Instrument and see if that helps.

One thing I can't do similar to you is feed the audio from the ER-1 to a separate mixer (as I don't have one), so I have the audio running to my soundcard (which is also handling the MIDI) - not sure if that could cause the timing issue I've been having?

I've never had the ER-1 wander off beat though. Once set, it stays locked on for the whole session. It's just when returning to a session after a reboot etc, I need to re-do the timings as they would of changed quite significantly.

Glad to hear that this should not be the case though as at least now I know it can be setup to work perfectly each time

Cheers

[Richie Witch]

One thing I can't do similar to you is feed the audio from the ER-1 to a separate mixer (as I don't have one), so I have the audio running to my soundcard (which is also handling the MIDI) - not sure if that could cause the timing issue I've been having?

Actually, my mixer *is* my soundcard; I have a Mackie Onyx 1620i "mixer-face". So although it has the form-factor of a mixer, Ableton sees it as any other audio interface/soundcard.

The Mackie has no MIDI connections but I already had the MOTU MIDI router, so I didn't sweat losing the MIDI connection when I replaced my Focusrite soundcard.

So really, there shouldn't be any significant difference between the ER-1 audio routing of our two setups.

Good luck!

[Daniel_S]

OK, getting somewhere - seems more stable having it run through an External Instrument.

Just out of interest - what midi settings do you have in your preferences on the MIDI out port?

Also, you say that you also use the MIDI out on your ER-1... for what purpose?

Cheers

[Richie Witch]

Keep in mind that in my setup, Ableton is talking to the MOTU MIID hub, so in my preferences I see a MOTU master channel and 8 individual ports, duplicated for both in and out.

On the master channel output, I have track/sync/remote all on. For the master channel input, only track is on. All the individual port channels are all off, in and out.

All these extra port preferences allow the MOTU hub to do incredibly complex MIDI routing that I don't need, but I picked it up practically free on Craig's List, so I didn't worry about all the extra functionality I might never use. And who knows, maybe I will need all that fancy routing one day?

As for the MIDI out on the ER-1, I just keep it plugged in for those times when I'm transferring drum loops between the ER-1 and my PC (via SysEx). I've discovered that even when uploading patches, the ER-1 requires a hand-shake signal to confirm proper data writing, so you can't upload without the MIDI out port connected. And having it connected encourages me to back up my own ER-1 patches more often.

[Daniel_S]

Keep in mind that in my setup, Ableton is talking to the MOTU MIID hub, so in my preferences I see a MOTU master channel and 8 individual ports, duplicated for both in and out.

On the master channel output, I have track/sync/remote all on. For the master channel input, only track is on. All the individual port channels are all off, in and out.

All these extra port preferences allow the MOTU hub to do incredibly complex MIDI routing that I don't need, but I picked it up practically free on Craig's List, so I didn't worry about all the extra functionality I might never use. And who knows, maybe I will need all that fancy routing one day?

As for the MIDI out on the ER-1, I just keep it plugged in for those times when I'm transferring drum loops between the ER-1 and my PC (via SysEx). I've discovered that even when uploading patches, the ER-1 requires a hand-shake signal to confirm proper data writing, so you can't upload without the MIDI out port connected. And having it connected encourages me to back up my own ER-1 patches more often.

I see, thanks for the reply.

Do you ever program the ER-1's patterns from within Live (DrumRack), or do you do it all OTB and prefer to record the audio instead?

[Richie Witch]

I have used Ableton to trigger the ER-1 a couple times, but I didn't find it very satisfying.

At one point, I even built an Instrument Rack full of External Instruments, one for each sound on the ER-1. That way I could add unique plugins to each sound and manipulate everything from Ableton. What didn't occur to me until after I tried it is that identical noise is additive. So having 10 external instruments all simultaneously streaming audio from the ER-1 created a cumulative noise floor that nearly drowned out the drum sounds! LOL

But I digress...

I will sometimes use the ER-1 to find inspiration. I can sit and try different patterns, and just muddle around looking for a beat that appeals to me. I don't even need to have any other gear or the computer on for this, so it's nice to just sit and twiddle when I have a moment. If I find something I like, I can save it and come back to it later when I have more time.

However, what I usually use my ER-1 for is sound design. In my setup, I can patch my ER-1 through a small Eurorack with a collection of FX modules, that is then routed to an Electrix Filter Factory, then on to a compressor, then to my Mackie mixer where I have outboard reverb and other bus effects I can apply.

So I'll start with a kick drum and twist all those cool knobs on the ER-1, pitch, modulation, delay, etc, then twist some more at the modular, then at the Filter Factory, then at the mixer. And I'll just keep messing with it until I hear something cool. I'll then record a couple bars of that into Ableton, and then continue looking for more cool sounds--maybe three or four kicks, a couple snares, hats, weird noises, etc.

Sometimes, I'll build an entire twisted beat, then solo each sound and record individual samples that way.

When I'm tired of that, I go back to my recorded samples in Ableton, chop out my favorite hit (or two) from each one, and drop them all into a Drum Rack. Since the noise in each sample is not identical in this case, the noise is not cumulative, and stays hidden away in the background where it belongs, but I still get to have a Drum Rack filled with ER-1 sounds (sort of, LOL).

I have other synths that can produce drum sounds, but there is just something about the ER-1, its retro sound and its controls, that appeals to me.

Hope some of that was helpful!

[Daniel_S]

I have used Ableton to trigger the ER-1 a couple times, but I didn't find it very satisfying.

At one point, I even built an Instrument Rack full of External Instruments, one for each sound on the ER-1. That way I could add unique plugins to each sound and manipulate everything from Ableton. What didn't occur to me until after I tried it is that identical noise is additive. So having 10 external instruments all simultaneously streaming audio from the ER-1 created a cumulative noise floor that nearly drowned out the drum sounds! LOL

But I digress...

I will sometimes use the ER-1 to find inspiration. I can sit and try different patterns, and just muddle around looking for a beat that appeals to me. I don't even need to have any other gear or the computer on for this, so it's nice to just sit and twiddle when I have a moment. If I find something I like, I can save it and come back to it later when I have more time.

However, what I usually use my ER-1 for is sound design. In my setup, I can patch my ER-1 through a small Eurorack with a collection of FX modules, that is then routed to an Electrix Filter Factory, then on to a compressor, then to my Mackie mixer where I have outboard reverb and other bus effects I can apply.

So I'll start with a kick drum and twist all those cool knobs on the ER-1, pitch, modulation, delay, etc, then twist some more at the modular, then at the Filter Factory, then at the mixer. And I'll just keep messing with it until I hear something cool. I'll then record a couple bars of that into Ableton, and then continue looking for more cool sounds--maybe three or four kicks, a couple snares, hats, weird noises, etc.

Sometimes, I'll build an entire twisted beat, then solo each sound and record individual samples that way.

When I'm tired of that, I go back to my recorded samples in Ableton, chop out my favorite hit (or two) from each one, and drop them all into a Drum Rack. Since the noise in each sample is not identical in this case, the noise is not cumulative, and stays hidden away in the background where it belongs, but I still get to have a Drum Rack filled with ER-1 sounds (sort of, LOL).

I have other synths that can produce drum sounds, but there is just something about the ER-1, its retro sound and its controls, that appeals to me.

Hope some of that was helpful!

Very helpful, thanks - it's always interesting to hear other people's workflows when they have similar gear I find.

Glad you mentioned the issues about the noise when stacking up so many External Instruments as this has saved me some time trying that out Having said that, I think that I too would feel a little uninspired programming the ER-1 from within Live.

Funny thing is that I got the ER-1 to be my main drum machine, to replace Drum Racks even! However, in reality I've find it a great machine for creating some truly interesting sounds and FX which I then record and drop into my tracks here and there.

I too also like to audition the many different patterns when I'm struggling to find that missing something in my drum loops and always find a pattern which has something that just sits right, which I then solo and record.

Awesome bit of kit for the money!

Thanks for all your help dude.

[Richie Witch]

Thanks for all your help dude.

You're welcome!