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Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:43 am
by petal
I have succesfully nested instrument racks in combination with "external instrument" and gained 8x8 conrtollers pointing at the same external synth.
This is really handy, because you can name and group controllers and map out your external synth controllers and have them hands on available with Push.

Now I need to do the same for a VST instrument.

I know that Live will automatically map parameters in banks, but I don't have the option to name these banks and I can't group the controllers the same way as I can with the methoed described above.

How do I achieve 8x8 controllers pointing at the same vsti with the same kind of grouping and naming options as I have with my external synths - is it even possible?

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:01 am
by Stromkraft
petal wrote:
How do I achieve 8x8 controllers pointing at the same vsti with the same kind of grouping and naming options as I have with my external synths - is it even possible?
Possibly, but you might want to checkout UberMap if you haven't already.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:32 pm
by petal
OK, thanks.

Although ubermap sounds like the solution, I'd prefer not to install "beta" released stuff (although I might have to in this situation).

Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on how to achieve my goal with a "standard" live 9 suite installation or perhaps direct me to where I can find the solution in the manual?

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:21 pm
by S4racen
petal wrote:
Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on how to achieve my goal with a "standard" live 9 suite installation or perhaps direct me to where I can find the solution in the manual?
Thats the problem, you can't!

Cheers
D

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:43 pm
by Stromkraft
petal wrote: Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on how to achieve my goal with a "standard" live 9 suite installation or perhaps direct me to where I can find the solution in the manual?
I'm not even sure what's the difference between what you've done and stuff like the Community Mappings or the normal parameter mapping, so you'd have to explain that first. Why the nesting? I nest, but that's for audio purposes.

So no, for now.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:17 pm
by petal
Fair enough.

I need a solution where I can freely assign/map controllers to parameters on a vsti.

I can do this with a normal instrument rack, but I'm limited to 8 controllers. I want to break this limit in order to map all parameters on the vsti. And I want to do it in a way where I can group and freely assign 8 controllers in each group. I want to be able to name each group and each parameter, in order to make it easy to navigate the final result with push. Each button representing a group of 8 controllers.

I hope this explanation is understandable :)

I have achieved the above result for my external synths, but I can't figure out how to do it for internal third party vsti's - maybe it's not possible in vanilla live 9 suite!?

If it is not possible, I'll look into ubermap.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:34 pm
by petal
This is how I've mapped out 8x8 controllers for my hardware synths:

Image

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The reason why this trick works, is because each "external instrument" in the instrument rack is pointing to the same hardware synth through midi.
This trick however, is not possible for a vsti.

Is ubermap the only option to achieve the same for a vsti?

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:47 pm
by Sarrova-Q
Does this rack remember the last parameter states when loading your song?

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:59 pm
by petal
Yes it does.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:35 pm
by Airyck
So you can't just rack inside a rack inside a rack inside a rack with a VSTi? I guess I've never tried it but you should be able to as far as I know. You'd have to just go in a level for each set of parameters you wanted to control but you think it should work.

Also if the VSTi can MIDI learn you could use the External instrument routed back to the VSTi and MIDI learn each parameter then rename the Macros for each set of controls

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:37 pm
by Stromkraft
petal wrote: The reason why this trick works, is because each "external instrument" in the instrument rack is pointing to the same hardware synth through midi.
This trick however, is not possible for a vsti.
This is quite nifty, I must say.
It certainly should be possible to this with a VSTi. I build my drum racks this way, unless I'm missing some finer detail. However, you're limited to 128 parameters per instance. But that's the same for external instruments I think.

Hmm, worth investigating.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:11 pm
by borg
do the same as for your scope synths, but instead of the scope midi ports, select a virtual midi port (something like IAC but for PC. never did this on PC, but iirc something like rtp midi?) and select the same virtual port for the vsti?

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:41 pm
by Stromkraft
Stromkraft wrote:
petal wrote: The reason why this trick works, is because each "external instrument" in the instrument rack is pointing to the same hardware synth through midi.
This trick however, is not possible for a vsti.
This is quite nifty, I must say.
It certainly should be possible to do this with a VSTi. I build my drum racks this way, unless I'm missing some finer detail. However, you're limited to 128 parameters per instance. But that's the same for external instruments I think.

Hmm, worth investigating.
Update, well, the limitation is that the Macro knobs only work on containing parameters in the current rack so if this can be made to work it's with a device that can be 1) mapped and 2) send MIDI CC and you need also 3) a VSTi that can respond to MIDI.

The difference to Drum Racks is that there's less need to use automation there, trigging a sound is typically enough.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:27 am
by Steve Glen
Borg is right. There is no 'stock' solution, but the most solid wirkaround is the iac driver (mac) or virtual midi (pc). The second option is to use cc changes via max4live and although faster to implement than the first option, it is less stable.

Re: Nesting racks to gain 8x8 controllers - is it possible?

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:15 am
by petal
Thank you very much all of you for chiming in. I think I'll have a look at ubermap and see if it does the trick I need here.

However I find it very strange that Push/Ableton doesn't have a stock solution to map out all parameters on a softsynth. Especially when Push is so well suited for the task.

ps.
Borg, do you still have a problem with lunatics in the hall? ;)