Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Azedex
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Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Azedex » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:17 pm

Hello Guys and hopefully hello Ableton People



I'm on my way getting my bachelor degree in audio engeneering.

I did launch my own Record Label and using Ableton and Pro Tools atm.

Now i got a SERIOUS QUESTION.

Is there a way or will there be a way in the NEXT 2 YEARS that Ableton will be usefull in a Recording/Music Studio ?

I'm planning to build a studio with tenthousands of Dollars so we are talking of a serious studio not just a home studio (i got that now).

The problem as you know is that Ableton doesn't support EUCON nor DSP (correct me if im wrong).

I'm planning to get a 24-64 channel digital mixer, DSP systems, worldclock and so on.

Thats all fine using Pro Tools but with Ableton this probably won't work.

Can you please get me your idea of the whole thing?


The only solution i see when i really wanna use Ableton i will have to rewire it in Pro Tools, but seriously why should i do that i probably just make the music with Cubase (supports EUCON) and do the recording with Pro Tools.

Thank you for your help and input!

Regards

And NO i don't spend a 100k on Mackie Protocol.

Angstrom
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Angstrom » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:42 pm

Most studios run on ProTools and that's what it's based around - but they have installs of other stuff available. The punters come in with a Live session, or whatever the hell program, they all open up the studio's copy of Live and render out the tracks and then the studio load them up into protools.
Then they start mixing.

I'm a bit out of the loop these days, but the last time I checked that's what was happening. You will not be running a studio on Ableton Live unless you want to go bankrupt even faster.

garyboozy
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by garyboozy » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:03 pm

Angstrom wrote:...even faster.
:lol:

Buleriachk
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Buleriachk » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:11 pm

You're putting ten grand into this thing and have this question? :)
(Well, ok. ten grand isn't so much these days....)

dented42ford
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by dented42ford » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:33 pm

Azedex wrote: I'm on my way getting my bachelor degree in audio engeneering.

I did launch my own Record Label and using Ableton and Pro Tools atm.
Welcome to the world of "music production". I sincerely hope your taste runs in the direction of masochism, 'cause you're in for a world of pain.
Azedex wrote:Now i got a SERIOUS QUESTION.
If it is so serious, then why are you shouting?
Really, this "attitude" just makes you come off as an arrogant little brat...
Azedex wrote:Is there a way or will there be a way in the NEXT 2 YEARS that Ableton will be usefull in a Recording/Music Studio ?
It is useful NOW. If it weren't, you wouldn't be asking the question!!!

Is it a neccessity in a COMMERCIAL STUDIO? No. But as I'm about to say, you don't have the budget for a COMMERCIAL STUDIO...
Azedex wrote:I'm planning to build a studio with tenthousands of Dollars so we are talking of a serious studio not just a home studio (i got that now).
I got news for you, bub, a lot of "home studio" owners in today's market have a lot more than "tenthousands of Dollars" into their gear. If you are thinking that a "Real, COMMERCIAL STUDIO" can be done for under $100k (starting from not much), you are sorely mistaken. You will be competing with guys like me who have $200k+ into their "home studios", with good [treated] rooms and years of experience...

...and no, "I [just] went to school for this, I'm the proverbial shite" attitude...
Azedex wrote:The problem as you know is that Ableton doesn't support EUCON nor DSP (correct me if im wrong).

I'm planning to get a 24-64 channel digital mixer, DSP systems, worldclock and so on.

Thats all fine using Pro Tools but with Ableton this probably won't work.

Can you please get me your idea of the whole thing?
First off, getting a "mixer" would be a bit old-fashioned. There are some Live/Studio-Mixers that are pretty good audio interfaces on top of being mixers (PreSonus comes to mind), but they are really more suited for live use...

Why do you want "DSP"? What systems are you looking at? Seriously, from the way you are talking, it sounds like you've got your mind set on something that is absolutely unnecessary to your purposes. There aren't many DSP-Accelerated systems left, and the "big one" (Avid HDX) isn't used much for that any more in any case. UAD is good, but the DSP largely acts as a 'dongle' for the (admittedly excellent) plugins...

As far as Eucon support goes, Ableton doesn't really need it. That being said, it does support Mackie, so you can use most Eucon control surfaces with it. I've used my Artist Series (Mix and Control) with Ableton plenty of times, and yes, the motors work. In my experience, the only DAWs that do good with Eucon are the big 4 - PT, Cubase, Logic, Sonar...

Speaking of which, why are you so deadset on motorized faders? Yeah, they look cool - which, if you are going to attempt a COMMERCIAL STUDIO, is a thing - but they don't really add that much functionality unless you really use them. I started out learning on a console with flying faders, so I have them to replicate that experience - but to be honest, I only really use them on very specific sorts of mixes, and rarely the kind I do in Live...

My point is, you obviously don't really know what you want. You have been exposed to a lot of !COOL! stuff in school, and now you want it for yourself. You've got yourself a little money, and you want to make a go at a studio. What you really, really need to do is think it out better before making purchase decisions. A good rule of thumb I heard once (from an excellent studio designer) is that you should budget 60% of your initial spend (after premises) on the environment - room treatment, mostly - 15% on your monitors, and the last 25% on "actual gear". If you want to spend 'tenthousands of Dollars' on gear, you better know that you're going to have to spend 'hundredthousands' on the physical studio...
Azedex wrote:The only solution i see when i really wanna use Ableton i will have to rewire it in Pro Tools, but seriously why should i do that i probably just make the music with Cubase (supports EUCON) and do the recording with Pro Tools.
That sounds unnecessarily complicated - what do you find you can't do in Live? Or have you simply been brainwashed by the nonsense that "Pro Tools is a better mixing DAW"??? :roll:

Why are you wanting so badly to mix in ProTools, in the first place? Learn to mix in where you work - other than some PDC issues and such, Live is a perfectly OK mixing environment, and if you were to use Cubase, it is just as good as Pro Tools. Once again, you don't seem to know what you really want to do!

If you want to use Ableton, get Ableton. You HAVE to have Pro Tools, even if you never use it, if you want to get commercial contracts - I do, and am certified, but haven't even opened the program in 18 months (other than to brush up once in a while). If you want an "all-in-one" DAW, Cubase is a pretty good idea - and you should have Logic, Reason, and Studio One for session compatibility...
Azedex wrote:And NO i don't spend a 100k on Mackie Protocol.
Why in GOD'S NAME would you get one of those? Nuage and the Avid solutions are just better for studio use. This is the kind of comment that leads people like me (ie, those who've been around a while) to think you have no idea what you are talking about...

infernal.machine
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by infernal.machine » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:41 pm

:lol:

mholloway
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by mholloway » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:51 pm

But he's almost got a bachelor's degree, so he must be legit!!




:mrgreen:
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

yur2die4
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by yur2die4 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:04 pm

I don't know if the Ableton forum is the place for such a serious tone. You're bound to come across light-hearted fun and probably an enjoyable atmosphere.

I'll tell you one thing.

When you build your studio with your 10 grand, do not by ANY MEANS get the APC Mini. The thing is a RIP OFF, has Zero clip overview in session mode, and was programmed by idiots (you can tell they are idiots because they can't make such a simple fix).

For more professional questions that have a more broad knowledge of DAWs you should maybe check out gearslutz.

Buleriachk
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Buleriachk » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 pm

yur2die4 wrote:When you build your studio with your 10 grand, do not by ANY MEANS get the APC Mini. The thing is a RIP OFF, has Zero clip overview in session mode, and was programmed by idiots (you can tell they are idiots because they can't make such a simple fix)..
Not only that, they didn't implement Session Overview, so you can't use banks (maybe that is what you meant). Same with the APC Key 25. Brilliant hardware units, but programmed by fricken' idiots. I don't know who was responsible, Ableton or Akai, but whoever it was, they should reassign them to their old job as pickup/delivery at the warehouse ....)

Ronin1973
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Ronin1973 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:44 pm

Before investing in a "professional" studio, try spending a few years WORKING in the industry. That means getting a job with someone who has already built a professional studio and working with real clients.

I've been doing that since 1994. I've met a lot of characters who've just graduated who couldn't even patch in an outboard piece to an aux send and return it to a channel in the mixer. Getting a degree means you've just opened the door and now on the doorstep... out there is the rest of the world.

How do you intend to stretch $10k into a professional studio? Where are you going to build it? In your mom's basement? $10k doesn't even cover the working cap. you'll need just so the place and you will survive for 3 months. No one will book a studio where the owner is busy working his day-job and can't take bookings. What about the rent for the space and the cost of build-out? A professional studio is first and foremost the treatment of the space you will be working in. Control room? Studio? $10k?

Yep... finish school... work for a few years... then go back and read this thread.

timday
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by timday » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:07 pm

With what you're doing I'd go with Pro Tools or, at a pinch, Nuendo. They're designed for that kind of thing. Ableton was originally performance software and while it has expanded into a DAW it still shows its roots, and they still seem more interested in that side of things, though I find it really useful as a composiiton tool. I like producing in it but then I'm in a home studio and not likely to be buying a fancy desk any time soon (I'd rather spend the money on analogue synths but that's another story). I don't think Ableton even see Pro Tools as a rival. I think they see Maschine and Octatrack and MPC as their main competition.

Point is, most of Ableton's USPs (session view, loads of available performance control surfaces, Max for Live etc) aren't a massive amount of use in a recording studio. Most of PTs USPs (Eucon, Media Composer compatibility, HUI control, intelligent voicing, shuffle mode, spot mode etc) are specifically designed for recording and editing. Unless you actually seriously want Ableton's features I don't see why you'd need it. You might want a copy so when people come in with Ableton sessions you can render out their audio, and if you're already dropping $10K a few hundred extra for Ableton won't break the bank, I guess, but then again you could always ask your clients for rendered wavs or aiffs anyway.

beats me
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by beats me » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:11 pm

I can’t imagine this being a good point in history to open a pro recording studio. To increase your odds of making a living at it you should open a studio/restaurant/bowling alley, the trifecta of failsafe businesses.

pinkpaint
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by pinkpaint » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:39 pm

First of all, the Ableton forum is a great place to ask this question because you are for some parts of your question specifically asking about Ableton. So don't listen to those haters. I myself am close to getting my degree in music production, however I originally began my journey in audio engineering so I can see a lot of where your coming from.

Ableton has always been useful in a recording studio. For both ends of music production and audio engineering. While mainstream engineering schools such as Full Sail don't shed light on Ableton, there are many engineers who do specific tasks in Ableton, such as recording a single track with a lot of sound design (obviously this would go a lot quicker in ableton then bounce into PT). I know people who hate PT elastic audio and come into ableton they do all their warping with their transients to bring everything into the beat and then bounce and bring into PT. I know an engineer who has left PT for Ableton 100% of the work. There are many EDM producers who do their own mixes and masters right after they finish their track in ableton, and these people include the likes of famous EDM icons such as Laidback Luke. think the question in which you are really asking is, will Ableton make any moves to do anything like the avid racks, I would imagine 90% no, but hey if they did I would 99% likely buy it.

Also, as a home studio guy, I can tell you that 10k is not enough to consider yourself a professional recording studio, you couldn't even get the pics required to be a professional recording studio for 10k, tbh. But again I don't know your motives maybe your not doing recording and maybe your just mixing whats sent to you?

Ableton does slightly support EUCON, however EUCON don't work on shit with yosemite so keep that in mind. It is not as powerful as EUCON in PT or even logic however, you can set up a EUCON controller and it can do pans sends mute solo and volume so yeah its not full fledge desk if you got an avid s6 or something dope, even the new artist mix.

Honestly, if your someone who loves ableton like I do, and yet still hope to use protools and love DSP, go with universal audio. they support ableton, logic and pt and a few more daws. However, their plugins are top of the line, if you have a lot of dsp plugins you may not want to go with this route as it is only meant to process UAD dsp. I currently have two universal audio apollo quads with ableton. The UA apollos can be clocked as well.

Again, kinda confused on what your going for here, cause yes ableton is professional and useful NOW in recording and music studios, however if you let me know more specifically what your doing, I would love to help further.

Steve Glen
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Steve Glen » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:49 pm

Or be a niche guy. Spend ur 10k on mics and rent them out. Or have a recording space for recording smashing watermelons. If you have the worlds best watermelon smashing soundstage, you might get some work.

Steve Glen
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Re: Serious Studio on Ableton - SERIOUS or JOKE ?

Post by Steve Glen » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:51 pm

Doesnt pt license the same elastic audio that ableton has. Is the implementation different?

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