How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
prprprpr
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How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by prprprpr » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:46 pm

If you try make audio edits on other program, while the audio is opened in Ableton, you can't save them. Because "audio is in use" on ableton. Is there way around? Any tips would be appreciated.

From Jon Jopkins interview:


The live instruments get recorded into Logic, and then I open them simultaneously in SoundForge. I can make changes to them in [SoundForge], and those changes update immediately [in Logic] without having to save them. It's kind of like a loophole. Logic doesn't know that the sounds are being changed, so it just plays them directly off the drive. I'm just so used to it. I can have an infinite number of changes on a sound, with a whole Undo chain just for sound [in SoundForge] and a whole Undo chain just for arrangement changes [in Logic]. It keeps the sound and the arrangement completely separate, and I don't understand why there aren't programs that already do that. To me, the two things are different. They shouldn't be part of the same chain.

mholloway
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by mholloway » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:23 pm

Not sure what you're talking about...

I have Adobe Audition selected in Live's Preferences as External Audio Editor.

When I click "edit" in the clip box for an audio clip, Audition opens and loads the file from that clip (or just loads it, if the program is already running).

I make changes, hit save, then go back to Live; the file immediately updates in Live, and all is well.

I've never seen a "audio is in use" message. Live interacts pretty seamlessly with external audio editors, updating files accordingly as you make changes. Try using the "edit" button (which requires you set up an editor in preferences) and see if this circumvents the problem you are having.

-M
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

prprprpr
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by prprprpr » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:01 pm

After you apply audio effects with your editor trough ableton and then shut down your computer and then open it up. Can you undo audio edit's you have made with adobe audition? Im interested in having undo chain all the time for the audio.
mholloway wrote:Not sure what you're talking about...

I have Adobe Audition selected in Live's Preferences as External Audio Editor.

When I click "edit" in the clip box for an audio clip, Audition opens and loads the file from that clip (or just loads it, if the program is already running).

I make changes, hit save, then go back to Live; the file immediately updates in Live, and all is well.

I've never seen a "audio is in use" message. Live interacts pretty seamlessly with external audio editors, updating files accordingly as you make changes. Try using the "edit" button (which requires you set up an editor in preferences) and see if this circumvents the problem you are having.

-M

xbitz
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by xbitz » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:28 pm

Image

Edison as external standalone editor, u can set it in AL> preferences (/ file folder / sample editor section) and drag and drop (win) ... :) it uses its own folder so at the end should collect the samples into the current project folder using Live own sample handler

mholloway
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by mholloway » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:52 pm

prprprpr wrote:After you apply audio effects with your editor trough ableton and then shut down your computer and then open it up. Can you undo audio edit's you have made with adobe audition? Im interested in having undo chain all the time for the audio.
No, I don't think that is possible. The edits aren't even occurring inside Live, so it has no way to Undo them. And if you save the changes in Audition, you are destructively editing the file, so what's done is done.

That said, I create a 'backup' system by regularly using Live's "consolidate" function. E.g. if I want to make edits to an clip, I first create a new copy of the clip, then consolidate that copy; this ensures that the new clip references a new audio file, that will be stored in the "consolidated" folder that Live creates in the project. Then I hit edit, make whatever changes in audition, and when I hit 'save' I know that the change are being applied to that newly consolidated file in Live. If I hadn't done the consolidate command, I would have been modifying the original audio file.

That all sounds more confusing than it really is. As a workflow, it's actually all very smooth working between the two programs, once you've got the basic behavior down. But no, you won't have Undo available, but you could at least keep hitting Command-J for Consolidate on copies of the clips, to keep separate versions of each change.
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

prprprpr
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by prprprpr » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:00 pm

xbitz wrote:Image

Edison as external standalone editor, u can set it in AL> preferences (/ file folder / sample editor section) and drag and drop (win) ... :) it uses its own folder so at the end should collect the samples into the current project folder using Live own sample handler
This edit function is cool. But do you have your own undo chain, which is handled seperately from ableton? That's most important thing. I want to save up some cpu, also organize creativity.
mholloway wrote:
prprprpr wrote:After you apply audio effects with your editor trough ableton and then shut down your computer and then open it up. Can you undo audio edit's you have made with adobe audition? Im interested in having undo chain all the time for the audio.
No, I don't think that is possible. The edits aren't even occurring inside Live, so it has no way to Undo them
That's exactly why i created this post. This guy Jon Hopkins has figured it out. He can open editor, apply all fx's he wants, render it and logic play it straigh. When he saves shit up and when he opens the projects next day he has undo history from sound forge on audio and undo history on arrangement(logic). Now I know that ableton doesn't have undo history(definitely should consider adding this amazing feature). At least i'd like to have undo history from other program. Otherwise it doesnt make sense for me to use "edit".
Now i tried use edit with soundforge but undo history is lost when i close the editor. There should be work around.

beats me
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by beats me » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:10 pm

I still don’t know what a third party audio editor is for. Is this to address some shortcoming within the DAW?

mholloway
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by mholloway » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:53 pm

beats me wrote:I still don’t know what a third party audio editor is for. Is this to address some shortcoming within the DAW?

Yes. Live has no built-in audio editor, so there's all kinds of audio-editing functionality that, if you want to do it, needs to be done elsewhere. Live has a few little functions, like "reverse." But if you wanted to take a loop, reverse only a few sections of it, silence another section of it, apply distortion to just a few beats here and there, a weird delay at the end, etc etc, then save the loop with all this as rendered Audio.... In live you'd have to use the arrangement and a very elaborate (read: time consuming and lame) series of adding plugins, freezing, flattening, adding more stuff, feezing and flattening again, as well as cutting / pasting and consolidating to eventually get the new audio loop that has all these changes. In an audio editor, you can do this stuff very quickly, just working on the actual waveform, then save it, Live updates the file, and there ya go. Furthermore, the audio editor probably provides functions that simply cannot be achieved in live. Example: noise reduction / removal. Audition has a host of features for this, to clean up a wave file, remove certain sounds, etc.
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

mholloway
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by mholloway » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:58 pm

prprprpr wrote:

That's exactly why i created this post. This guy Jon Hopkins has figured it out. He can open editor, apply all fx's he wants, render it and logic play it straigh. When he saves shit up and when he opens the projects next day he has undo history from sound forge on audio and undo history on arrangement(logic). Now I know that ableton doesn't have undo history(definitely should consider adding this amazing feature). At least i'd like to have undo history from other program. Otherwise it doesnt make sense for me to use "edit".
Now i tried use edit with soundforge but undo history is lost when i close the editor. There should be work around.
What he's "figured out" isn't necessarily what you're talking about. Yeah, Soundforge has an undo chain. Audition also has a comprehensive 'history' log, allowing you to undo actions. But you're talking about saving a file, exiting the program, coming back, and still being able to access that Undo chain. Obviously Live and Logic can't provide that for any audio changes made in Soundforge or Audition. But I think even the Undo history in the audio editors is only applicable to the currently open, worked on file. I could be wrong, but even if so and the undo history is preserved in the editor, I'm not sure how that helps... it's still in the editor, not in Live. I don't see anything in your hopkins quote suggesting that his 'undo' availability extends beyond the editors themselves, in fact he specifically is stating that they are explicitly separate things...

...in any case, if you are using an external audio editor as described in my first post here, you will be able to access the Undo history of the external audio editor. Live will update the file whenever you go back to Live. I don't thing the relationship is really any different than what Hopkins is describing with Logic.
my industrial music made with Ableton Live (as DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER): https://deadwhenifoundher.bandcamp.com/
my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

stringtapper
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by stringtapper » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:16 pm

The only editor I know of that does anything close to that is iZotope RX 4 and you have to save to a proprietary filetype (.rxdoc) in order to retrieve the undo history after you've closed and reopened the app, so you couldn't load those files into Live anyway.

There's nothing in that guy's quote that says he can close Soundforge and still retrieve the undo history once he reopens, which seems to be what you think he's saying he can do.
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prprprpr
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by prprprpr » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:54 pm

mholloway wrote:

I could be wrong, but even if so and the undo history is preserved in the editor, I'm not sure how that helps... it's still in the editor, not in Live.
I agree with a lot what you say in that post but I think you and other people misunderstood my aim.


The aim is to have two separate undo chains for arrangement decisions and sound processing decisions at the same time. In two different programs running at the same time.


Yeah i agree, maybe my "close and open projects have undo history" is naive. But I can't manage having two undo chains at least temporarely. If i close the editor window to process the sound. ableton processes new WAV and I loose undo chain of processing. I don't know how to monitor processed sound in ableton while not loosing undo chain. I'm stupid, please explain.

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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by stringtapper » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:35 pm

I just tried it with Logic X and it seems Logic is just smarter about updating files that have been edited in an external editor. From what I can tell if your editor supports undo history after the file has been saved (not all apps do) then Logic will update automatically.

Live doesn't seem to update files in the same way. From what I can tell you've got to save and close the file in your editor for it to come back online and update in Live.
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prprprpr
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by prprprpr » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:55 pm

stringtapper wrote:I just tried it with Logic X and it seems Logic is just smarter about updating files that have been edited in an external editor. From what I can tell if your editor supports undo history after the file has been saved (not all apps do) then Logic will update automatically.

Live doesn't seem to update files in the same way. From what I can tell you've got to save and close the file in your editor for it to come back online and update in Live.
Yes sir you understand my problem!

fishmonkey
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by fishmonkey » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:03 am

prprprpr wrote:
stringtapper wrote:I just tried it with Logic X and it seems Logic is just smarter about updating files that have been edited in an external editor. From what I can tell if your editor supports undo history after the file has been saved (not all apps do) then Logic will update automatically.

Live doesn't seem to update files in the same way. From what I can tell you've got to save and close the file in your editor for it to come back online and update in Live.
Yes sir you understand my problem!
it works for me.

you don't have to close the file in the external editor in between edits. you do however have to click the Edit button in Live again if you want to do another edit or undo a previous edit in the external editor, and then have it update automatically...
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

fishmonkey
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Re: How to edit audio outside live while it's still in live?

Post by fishmonkey » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:28 am

just tried it with both Fission and Audition.

if you hit the Edit button in Live, then save changes in the external editor, Live reloads the file automatically.

after that, if you edit and save the file in the external editor without hitting the Edit button, the audio is not reloaded in Live. you can get Live to reload the file by clicking the Edit button again, then returning to Live.

of course it would be seamless if Live checked for a file being modified and reloaded it automatically without having to hit the Edit button each time.

maybe file a feature request?
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

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