Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Thu May 28, 2015 11:39 am

H20nly wrote:that. up there ^

In my first post in the thread, I mentioned how cool I thought it was that everyone was being civil about their issues and not starting a flame war and then you proceeded to get all fired up. What's wrong with people helping/trying to help people? Looking at the flip side?? You're so sure that because it's happening to you and others that it's something wrong with Live. Nobody disagreed. It was only the thought of other contributing factors that was being considered... is that so unlikely? If 20,000 other Live users chimed in with their success stories where would your voice be then? They're out there... Why not keep the thread useful and digestible instead of ranting and bemoaning? Surely it helps your cause more than war paint and chest pounding.
The only reason this thread devolved to what it did is b/c Strom & Machinesbroken, in particular, couldn't find it within themselves to acknowledge that other posters were mirroring the OPs concerns.

I think I said this point over and over.

In fact, I still can't figure out why those two thought their input was so highly regarded. Armchair tech support at its finest.

I certainly never would have given MHolloway the advice to go rip up his installs. That's Ableton's job. Imho it does alot more harm than good giving 'speculative' fixes.

It was clear as well, particularly from Machinesbroken, that he wasn't even reading peoples posts in full, just firing off whatever was on the tip of his fingers.

Like, sorry if the delivery got you salted guys, but I really could give a fuck. Carry on.
Last edited by phaded on Thu May 28, 2015 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Thu May 28, 2015 11:43 am

Machinesbroken wrote: I'm using Live right now, it's working great, but I'm the idiot.
Yes, you are.

You're still not telling me with your 34593804958309583048530589403854 combinations of possibilities of driver blah blah blah WHY this doesn't happen in other DAW platforms. Or why the issues that others are having so closely mirror each other. Where there is smoke, there is... ah fuck it.

I seriously feel like Lebron playing against the Hawks right now. Yawn.

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login
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by login » Thu May 28, 2015 7:06 pm

So does anyone has some hard numbers of the proportion of Live users having problems?

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by Machinesworking » Thu May 28, 2015 7:46 pm

phaded wrote:
Machinesbroken wrote: I'm using Live right now, it's working great, but I'm the idiot.
Yes, you are.

You're still not telling me with your 34593804958309583048530589403854 combinations of possibilities of driver blah blah blah WHY this doesn't happen in other DAW platforms. Or why the issues that others are having so closely mirror each other. Where there is smoke, there is... ah fuck it.

I seriously feel like Lebron playing against the Hawks right now. Yawn.
Simple, other DAWs have other limitations and code.
Beat clock problem I had with Live was rarely if at all happening in DP, and sometimes happening in Logic.
My first thought was Live was badly coded, and ranted about it. What actually was happening was Live was over polling the ports for Beat clock because people had complained about it not synching well. <--- This added fuel to me thinking it was 100% Abletons fault! DP was very sparse in it's polling, so recorded audio from a beat clock driven arpeggiator did not get batted out of synch by the errant Logitech mouse driver. Three different DAWs, three different reactions to a bad driver, with Live looking ten times worse than the others. Any problem I had with Beat Clock went away by replacing the Logitech driver.

Something like this is happening to you and others that are affected with bad Live set ups. It's not possible that it's 100% Live when there are people using Live who don't think this version is any worse than others. I'm not saying it isn't and issue that some third party VST or driver needs to be fixed, it could very well be Ableton's fault for sure. If it's Abletons fault that X driver, or Y VST is buggy, it's still a possibility to remove that from your system and use Live. This is the point that I think you're overlooking, something could be done by you to relieve the problem in the mean time if you still want to use Live. Working systems prove it's possible to have a working system.

phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Thu May 28, 2015 8:14 pm

Machinesbroken wrote: I'm not saying it isn't and issue that some third party VST or driver needs to be fixed, it could very well be Ableton's fault for sure. If it's Abletons fault that X driver, or Y VST is buggy, it's still a possibility to remove that from your system and use Live. This is the point that I think you're overlooking, something could be done by you to relieve the problem in the mean time if you still want to use Live. Working systems prove it's possible to have a working system.
1) Your story re: the Logitech drivers and the Beat Clock in Ableton really does not inspire confidence. It's more evidence, at least to me, of Ableton's flakiness and instability. Like, really.. that's just batshit crazy. Also, if you were having issues that were causing YOU that much grief, well I would expect you to be MORE empathic towards others currently having issues, not less.

2) You are speculating about what the problem might be for other users. You even admit in the above quote that it could be Ableton's fault. In other words, you really don't know. You've been basing everything off your little experience with your mouse, and that diminishes the voices of others that have been posting here, period.

3) The topic of this thread... read it. If it doesn't pertain to you, and you're just guessing, then show some respect to the 10+ others that have said they are indeed having issues. I really don't see how this is hard to process. 8)

Its amusing to me that I'm on an 'ego-crusade' with 'war paint' on 'beating my chest' when really I've just been standing my ground this whole thread. To me its much more egotistical to jump in a thread that doesn't pertain to you while assuming none of the participants know what they are doing ;)

For the last time as well: quit assuming that I have done nothing to remedy the problem. I think I've said enough times that I have.

Live 9 has been out for 2 years. Despite the post count, I have been following this forum, and have followed enough in these past two years to know that I'm far from alone in the issues I'm seeing. I think that's plenty of time to gather a formed opinion, don't you? With the number of users that have echoed that sentiment in this thread, my personal opinion in that sense has only solidified.

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phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Thu May 28, 2015 8:27 pm


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beatz01
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by beatz01 » Fri May 29, 2015 3:50 am

I think the core of all these problems is rooted in Ableton's focus No1 on making Live work with Push no matter what.That seems to be their top priority (so they could sell hardware and compete with Maschine) and that's what made Live buggy for "normal" (non-Push) users.

The solution would be so simple: Make 2 slightly different versions of each Live release; one for Push users, optimised for Push, the other for everyone else.

Problem solved.

One last objective observation:

phaded behaves like an *ss.

:mrgreen:

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by Machinesworking » Fri May 29, 2015 4:09 am

phaded wrote:
Machinesbroken wrote: I'm not saying it isn't and issue that some third party VST or driver needs to be fixed, it could very well be Ableton's fault for sure. If it's Abletons fault that X driver, or Y VST is buggy, it's still a possibility to remove that from your system and use Live. This is the point that I think you're overlooking, something could be done by you to relieve the problem in the mean time if you still want to use Live. Working systems prove it's possible to have a working system.
1) Your story re: the Logitech drivers and the Beat Clock in Ableton really does not inspire confidence. It's more evidence, at least to me, of Ableton's flakiness and instability. Like, really.. that's just batshit crazy. Also, if you were having issues that were causing YOU that much grief, well I would expect you to be MORE empathic towards others currently having issues, not less.

2) You are speculating about what the problem might be for other users. You even admit in the above quote that it could be Ableton's fault. In other words, you really don't know. You've been basing everything off your little experience with your mouse, and that diminishes the voices of others that have been posting here, period.

3) The topic of this thread... read it. If it doesn't pertain to you, and you're just guessing, then show some respect to the 10+ others that have said they are indeed having issues. I really don't see how this is hard to process. 8)

Its amusing to me that I'm on an 'ego-crusade' with 'war paint' on 'beating my chest' when really I've just been standing my ground this whole thread. To me its much more egotistical to jump in a thread that doesn't pertain to you while assuming none of the participants know what they are doing ;)

For the last time as well: quit assuming that I have done nothing to remedy the problem. I think I've said enough times that I have.

Live 9 has been out for 2 years. Despite the post count, I have been following this forum, and have followed enough in these past two years to know that I'm far from alone in the issues I'm seeing. I think that's plenty of time to gather a formed opinion, don't you? With the number of users that have echoed that sentiment in this thread, my personal opinion in that sense has only solidified.
1. I'm empathetic, if you've been following this forum for years like you say you'll note I generally am a lot less civil with people who call me an idiot or other ad hominum attacks than I have been with you. You're so busy being mad at people that you're not paying much attention to the fact that my 'little story' is about a bad driver that wasn't Ableton's fault, and that there was no solution beyond isolating it, and using something else for a while. They did a super solid over stable beat clock implementation, that was more affected by a mouse that was hogging all the bandwidth (and occasionally freezing), not because they did anything wrong. Ableton didn't have anything they could do, Logitech was 100% at fault there. DAWs can and do act differently to bad drivers, plug ins, and hardware.

2. Again, you never address the main point I'm bringing up over and over, Some peoples systems are not hosed, therefore there are ways to tweak your set up to get Live to work. That, is undeniable. Pointing that out doesn't address blame to ANY driver, VST/AU or to Ableton because I think VERY obviously I would tell you if I knew what was wrong with your system.

3. You have a disconnect here. You don't want help, you 100% think it's Ableton who are at fault, and are upset that I mentioned that using a beta is going to result in bad conclusions when you title a thread "Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess"

There is something different about your system than mine, some driver, plug in or hardware. There's no way around that conclusion.
Even if it's Live, if Live tweaked their audio card spec on Windows for instance and your Echo card driver with this tweak is causing instability as a hypothetical situation, or any number of other ways this can happen, it doesn't matter. What matters is you get a working system right?

Seriously, you have no idea how insane it was for years attempting to set up a computer for a DAW!
I've been in this game for about 20 years now, and at one point we would strip out extensions for the internet, printers, certain graphics, networking, and on and on and on.. just to have a system stable enough to host VSTs that would crash and trash your DAW.... It's actually gotten better, even though it's still a touchy bitch at times, there are still times when a DAW will get hosed by something or another. You're frustrated and angry, and it's not the most fun thing to hear, but what you have done so far to isolate the problems has not been successful, and people with working systems with the same software are proof it's possible to get a working system with Live 9.

So what haven't you done? Here's a list of things that are possible problems/solutions:

1. Third party plug ins- if removing them all from Live solves the problem then you know it's an AU/VST.

If removing them all does solve the problems, then the best method to isolate the errant plug in is to re-instal 1/2 the plug ins at a time.
This speeds up the process of isolating the buggy VST/AU...

2. Audio cards drivers - if using another card or built solve the problems...

3. Controllers, MIDI drivers

4. other Drivers - mouse, keyboard, etc.

5. Other software you run- Some people run additions to the finder, applications that monitor your system etc.

6. Your computer. On Windows at least, I've seen systems that just acted like shit with a particular audio card for no seemingly logical reason.

pencilrocket
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by pencilrocket » Fri May 29, 2015 5:42 am

So this time, keyboard driver causes instability? :lol:
Image

phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Fri May 29, 2015 7:34 am

beatz01 wrote:The solution would be so simple: Make 2 slightly different versions of each Live release; one for Push users, optimised for Push, the other for everyone else.

Problem solved.

One last objective observation:

phaded behaves like an *ss.

:mrgreen:
..says the acne-riddled teen from his mother's basement.

Congratulations sir on winning the prize for 'Least Likely Solution to Ever Get Implemented'

Now you can take your cute virtual insults, go pick up your virtual prize at the door and then kindly go play in some virtual traffic.

#trollharder xoxo

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phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Fri May 29, 2015 7:46 am

pencilrocket wrote:So this time, keyboard driver causes instability? :lol:
Oh man. Now I just want to give lil Machinesbroken a hug. :cry:

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phaded
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by phaded » Fri May 29, 2015 8:02 am

Whatever do I do in OSX-land where I have all of one (1) driver to install? It's got to be that one driver, surely not Ableton.

maybe its the APC40...

:roll:

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fishmonkey
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by fishmonkey » Fri May 29, 2015 12:42 pm

Ableton has a tough job with Live. from a reliability viewpoint, adding Max for Live was probably an unwise move; it has made the foundations too complex.

Live's strength is also the source of its vulnerability; its main game is keeping everything running on the fly in a non-linear fashion. from a computing point of view, it has quite tight real-time constraints. the big problem is that neither Windows nor OS X support hard real-time scheduling. that means that other software, drivers, and hardware can all readily screw things by hogging system resources for too long.

for the above reasons, Live will always be more fragile than a well-coded linear DAW (and it's not like they don't crash either). it will always be more susceptible to the flaws in other drivers and software. as the only other non-linear DAW, Bitwig has to deal with similar issues, but it has a new codebase, and they have implemented plugin sandboxing to try and shield Bitwig from plugin issues.
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H20nly
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by H20nly » Fri May 29, 2015 2:13 pm

pencilrocket wrote:So this time, keyboard driver causes instability? :lol:
it's possible.

I had a series of apps getting hung (Cubase, Live, FL Studio) and glitches several years ago that through process of long and tedious elimination turned out to be affected by a setting on an NVidia video card.

That doesn't make the points in the thread less valid, but it does give weight, however slight, to the notion that one of the people posting in it may have a similar issue...

mlclmdxxx
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Re: Ableton Live has become an unreliable mess.

Post by mlclmdxxx » Fri May 29, 2015 4:57 pm

I've never had a problem with it (though I've only had it for a couple of months).

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