Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:48 pm

TomViolenz wrote: Ah sure, and the thread didn't go quite as badly as I expected at first either, but that little dig using the OPs word choice was still warranted IMO :P
can't disagree with that. :P

TomViolenz
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by TomViolenz » Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:32 pm

For me the whole discussion is more a personal choice at this point rather than a fact.

Maschine or Push should not be treated (at least by grown men) like the preference for a football club or one of the political entertainment tribes (so no: right vs. wrong), but more like a taste or preference. Some like playing guitar, some prefer the keys. Some love blonds, others get hot and bothered when just seeing brunettes, some love liver, some think it's disgusting. So what?!
Are we not grown enough yet to accept that not everyone ticks exactly the same as us?!

So in the end neither Push or Maschine suck, if looked at in general, or alternatively (my view ;-) ) they both suck, because they both leave a lot of loose ends untied. 8)

Machinesworking
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:34 am

Sure, but don't you think that like football most participants are aware that it's just ditraction?
Having both Push and Maschine it's glaringly obvious which is more complex and customizable.
Not so much a blond brunette thing but Toyota Testarossa thing. Clearly the Toyota is underpowered compared, but the truth is I prefer the Toyota 90% of the time.
Neither are a military ATV that gets you anywere.

In other words, Maschine is far superior, but doesn't do Session View, so it doesn't replace Push. Probably Maschine Studio and a Launchpad Pro would, but at $1300 retail VS $600 retail of course it would.

yur2die4
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:08 am

It'd be nice if Maschine sorted out getting parameter details to display.

1. Push, apps, and the Novation Remote can do it
2. In the Mackie preset the Maschine can show parameters.
3. NI's Maschine-Live template is quite decent otherwise.

So why can't they crack that one little detail?
I'd be extra impressed if they implemented device browsing/loading :P

TomViolenz
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:12 am

yur2die4 wrote:It'd be nice if Maschine sorted out getting parameter details to display.

1. Push, apps, and the Novation Remote can do it
2. In the Mackie preset the Maschine can show parameters.
3. NI's Maschine-Live template is quite decent otherwise.

So why can't they crack that one little detail?
I'd be extra impressed if they implemented device browsing/loading :P
Have you checked if any of the NativeKontrol scripts for Maschine can do this?!

TomViolenz
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:27 am

Machinesworking wrote:Sure, but don't you think that like football most participants are aware that it's just ditraction?
Having both Push and Maschine it's glaringly obvious which is more complex and customizable.
Not so much a blond brunette thing but Toyota Testarossa thing. Clearly the Toyota is underpowered compared, but the truth is I prefer the Toyota 90% of the time.
Neither are a military ATV that gets you anywere.

In other words, Maschine is far superior, but doesn't do Session View, so it doesn't replace Push. Probably Maschine Studio and a Launchpad Pro would, but at $1300 retail VS $600 retail of course it would.
Push is certainly the red headed step child in this comparison.
The faults of Maschine can often easily be attributed to design decisions and the limitations of the controller it works with. (a step-sequencer on a 4x4 grid is always going to be an imperfect solution, there is no way around it and so is playing keys on 16 pads and I think NI did an admirable job in still making these features somewhat useful).

While Pushs shortcomings, considering its great physical layout and the powerful program it controls, are just pure negligence. Ongoing negligence for more than two years now :x
If Push would have come out with (or added over the years at a constant rate at least) the functionality PXT provides (with propper design of the buttons and the writing on them, so that accessing the new functionality is not too confusing), browsing presets, samples and vsts would have been more thought out from the start and the community mapping of Lives devices would have been the default mapping, the case would be turned around. But as it is Push feels like prematurely released abandon ware at this point (the miniscule, long overdue tweaks in 9.2 non withstanding).

And that's not even getting into that you can't use Push as a regular Midi controller, while Maschines openess in this regard is examplary! :x

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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:03 pm

I think a great first step would be for Ableton to copy NI's 'Controller Editor' concept. A software which doesn't necessarily reprogram the device, but communicates between the two devices (computer/software and Push) when in User mode. Maybe add other hardware with the Ableton logo too. (LP, APC)

But then this would be putting too much emphasis on Push's Secondary functionality. I feel that the Ableton people want the main layout to reign supreme, and don't want people reaching nirvana when they tap the little User button.

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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:23 pm

yur2die4 wrote:I think a great first step would be for Ableton to copy NI's 'Controller Editor' concept. A software which doesn't necessarily reprogram the device, but communicates between the two devices (computer/software and Push) when in User mode. Maybe add other hardware with the Ableton logo too. (LP, APC)
YES!!! That would be a great approach. And they should open this software up to other device manufacturers, so that they can use this platform too. Or alternatively, like they do today for scripts (because most are actually written by Ableton not the device manufacturers!) they should incorporate new devices to the controller layout in their editor as they come out.

I'm not aware of any DAW that has anything similar and I think this would be true progress for Live regarding the live aspect as well. (Since clever Midi controller layouts are a make or break kind of thing for live performance IMO)
It would truly be a useful innovation on Abletons part again. (And while they are at it they should also update the Midi assignment tab in Live to not only make it more convenient, but to make it truly powerful. Discontinous ranges, curves, why not add relational and conditional functions as well, etc. etc.....)
But then this would be putting too much emphasis on Push's Secondary functionality. I feel that the Ableton people want the main layout to reign supreme, and don't want people reaching nirvana when they tap the little User button.
That's a bold stance to take when your primary script is so lackluster and half assed :x

But further it unnecesarily limits Live. The above mentioned functionality could be like a turbo button for all the Midi controllers you own. Giving them abilities that they can then only have in Live. That alone should make Live a solid investment for many who don't use it yet.

While that mentioned stance just preserves a shitty status quo and severly limits the already existing users of Live/Push.


NB: Stray is in my opinion the right kind of guy for making these changes. He understands Midi and controllers and Lives API like no other and he has shown again and again that with the access he has over the API (without being able to change what the API can do) he can keep on innovating.

Hell with DDC he is on a pretty good path to make such an editor and that is from still working outside of Ableton as a one man company!

That they will give him the needed influence and resources to do it remains doubtful unfortunately :x

Machinesworking
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:47 pm

Hopefully Stray isn't incorporated in as an afterthought. Worst case scenario is a "Super User Mode" type BS where you have to jump through hoops to have features he adds in "Push the Accent button down for 5 seconds and you're now in xx mode" type crap.

There are enough things to worry about playing live without that.

KTlin
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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by KTlin » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:57 pm

Airyck wrote:I do something similar with Ableton Live but with session view I can record as long as I want, make a loop length and just move around until I find a nice sound motif or loop section. No limitation on how long I can record, no having to set up how long I want to record ahead of time, and no having to wait until the first beat to start recording.

With Maschine as soon as you reach the end of the pattern you start to overdub. It's a small thing and it's really that it just doesn't work for "me" personally.

Not being able to move the start point is another big one.
I was just about to buy the Maschine (I found a used MK1 at a great price) but then I stumbled upon this old thread (as well as this one here ).
So, what I want to ask is if all those issues mentioned above (especially not being able to record a pattern as long as you want, without the need to specify its length before recording) are still present, even after the latest 2.4 update.

Cheers

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Re: Just tried Maschine again after a few years

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:27 pm

Man. It would be nice if it had this!

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