Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
NoSonic822
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by NoSonic822 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:08 am

i used only operator and analog for over two years......decided after a bit that i was ready to move on i felt like i mastered them....just got zebra and that s all i think i need now..zebras fx are really good too......im trying to figure out the Zrev
tedlogan wrote:I also like the idea of limiting one's devices overall. While I agree on most of what you said, I don't want to live without Zebra and Bazille. I have bought Hive also, but this was mainly for its excellent enjoyable workflow , something which Live's synths lack (way too much tabbing - hate it).

Those are the only plugins I own. Oh, Satin too, but I can live without it. Them combined with Sampler, Drumracks, Instrument Racks, Granulator 2, Corpus, Collision (although Zebra does a better job of this I still use it) and I've got more than I'll ever need.

Even Tension, which to me often sounds pretty crap on its own, can sound great with layers, Convolution reverb, Corpus and so on. Some designer(s) brought out a pack recently, I think Entangled Species, which sounds fantastic.

You are right - many people expect more plugins to fix their musical woes instead of practice & time with using the tools they already have.

Focus on a select group of devices/instruments, and try to become REAL good at using them.

filter_7
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by filter_7 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:35 am

That interestng thread made me think about the influence of 'sexy user interfaces' over our ears.

Have you that weak point too?

Sometimes when I use an external VST it's because of the better interface and realistic UI (like an EQ rack for example). But Live can do the same!
I think graphics can influence our way of thinking, and we should fight that trusting our ears first.

Live's UI is not the easiest one around, and the difficulty to approach some synths like operator for me resides only in studying a little bit more the interface, compared to other 'sexy ready-made' external ones.

tedlogan
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by tedlogan » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:03 pm

Inversoundzzz wrote:just got zebra and that s all i think i need now
Yup, it's one of those desert island synths. Check out this user-made skin for Zebra, called Redux. I guarantee you that Zebra 3 will take pointers from this design. While you still have tabbing, it's far superior to the original skins. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1&t=418671
filter_7 wrote:That interestng thread made me think about the influence of 'sexy user interfaces' over our ears.

Have you that weak point too?
I do like a nice-looking interface, though by no means necessary, it's a bonus. But when the interface design makes the workflow cumbersome, then I'm immediately turned off.
Live's UI is not the easiest one around, and the difficulty to approach some synths like operator for me resides only in studying a little bit more the interface, compared to other 'sexy ready-made' external ones.
I do like Live's very clear minimalist look, and overall it works fine, but when it comes to the Instruments, I sometimes want to pluck it from the screen and smash it against a wall. Analog, Operator, etc - they should all be expandable just like EQ8, where you can see everything at once. The initial idea of keeping the whole UI clean and clear and focused on music does not work well when it comes to synth programming.

filter_7
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by filter_7 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:53 pm

tedlogan wrote:...- they should all be expandable just like EQ8, where you can see everything at once. The initial idea of keeping the whole UI clean and clear and focused on music does not work well when it comes to synth programming.
nice point for Live 10 :)

pinkpaint
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by pinkpaint » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:53 pm

As I see people asking about specific mastering plug-ins and UA plugs and stuff I will comment on that.

For a plug-in like the passive EQ, no I can't go without it. I actually use the manley massive passive mastering version UA plug during mastering. Why do I use this over a native device you ask? Well for one, I dont do my mastering in Ableton. But if I did, I still wouldn't use a EQ 8 as the massive passive is amazing at being minimal and precise... which is what it is made for...

What do I mean when I say, which is what it is made for... We can also translate this to, why do so many plugins exist wether it be a similar digital tool at most native daws disposals or an analog modeled plug? We even see this in Live as we have 2 Compressors; Compressor and Glue.

To answer this question simply, it is because certain tools have different parameters on them with different value ranges as well as totally different controls. This leads to certain tools being better for specific tasks. Does digital Coloration exist? With a surplus of tape saturation plugins and analog summing busses you would hope so. I mean if people are spending thousands to sum their digital tracks through analog gear or hundreds on tape saturation plugins you would hope that both of these parties are achieving their desired result.

Well, the answer to the question is yes, they are getting warmth or color out of their desired result. But at what point does this matter to someone who is just a bedroom producer. Never. If your music blows up, people will line up to mix your tracks for you from major studios and do all the analog summing possible.. If your someone who is a bedroom producer who is like, hey I want to use a tape saturator to bring in some warmth/color to this mix, it will certainly do what it is intended. (again this is a mix/mastering plug, so this is a special one) but is it something that will ultimately make your track a hit record or not? Honestly, no.

What I also learned from this experience is that you need to stick to one step at a time. While I think the average EDM producer knows a good amount about mixing through learning sound design and signal flow, many people worry too much about the final product before they've even started their project. They want to have all these crazy mixing and mastering plugs or invest in analog gear before they even have a decent song. This was ME btw!!!

I dont worry about the mix or master at all while I am creating. I mix a little bit naturally as most of us do while working just to keep a balanced project to actually work on. Then when your music gets great start trying to perfect your mixing skills or find someone who is willing to mix your stuff..

Just focus on being a musician.. I stress that so much.. there are plenty of people who just focus on being mixing and mastering engineers..

fishmonkey
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:28 am

pinkpaint wrote: Just focus on being a musician.. I stress that so much.. there are plenty of people who just focus on being mixing and mastering engineers..
fair point, but it does depend on what kinds of music you are aiming to create. if you are going to produce electronic music then learning how to mix sounds together is part of the job. you are 'playing' all the instruments and therefore need to learn how to arrange and mix them together.

a good musician playing a single instrument in a band also mixes their sound in with the rest of the band. the difference is that they only have control over their own instrument (unless you count throwing a drumstick at the stoned lead guitarist to end their solo)...
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Machinesworking
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:16 am

I think whatever works to get your juices flowing, use it.
I'll never be 100% in the box for plug ins, in my opinion the third party stuff works better for me.

Nothing in music is 100% black and white, mostly the reason limitations work is because people have a hard time applying them when they have choices, I exist in that other boat, it doesn't affect me negatively to have choices. I'm definitely a kitchen sink type, there are plenty of great musicians who also use a huge pallet.

Martin Gifford
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Martin Gifford » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:23 am

I haven't noticed any problems with Ableton effects, and they are so convenient. But I see people on videos using other effects VSTs and they look smooth and sweet, which is tempting.

But Ableton instruments all sound horrible to me. Even got a bank of sounds from supposedly the best Operator programmer - still thin and nothing special, yet it took the CPU way up. Replace it with almost any Sylenth preset and it will sound 10 times better. Zebra is better again, although different. I only bought Hive because of the better file management - still think Sylenth sounds better.

Martin Gifford
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Martin Gifford » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:48 am

Is this the future, especially with Microsoft adding the new Hololens feature:

Image

Eric C.
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Eric C. » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:37 pm

I recently switched to Mac. I love it. The only things I moved over where Vintage Warmer, Pro-L & Waves SSL. I'm going to try and stick with just these. I probably don't need these either... :roll: :lol:
I want to be a better producer, not keep going back in time while trying to learn mew plug-ins and DAWs.

Matt_Quinn
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Matt_Quinn » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:21 pm

I use Kontakt for Vintage Organs and Session Horns pro, but there's no real Live equivalent of those. I also use some T-Racks modules - Linear Phase EQ, OptoCompressor and Brickwall limiter, but those *only* get used once everything else is done as a final touch up. Other than that, Live stuff all the way. The one thing I've been lusting after is a way to use Live like Stutter Edit, triggering different effects 'banks' with keyswitches. If effects racks had keyzones liek Sampler, it would be perfect.
the_planet wrote:Trap music is not supported in the current version.

pinkpaint
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by pinkpaint » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:07 pm

I think theres one thing that is obvious here though: We would all like to see more native synths.

H20nly
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by H20nly » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:40 pm

i only use a few Waves vocal plugins at this point. i find myself too sidetracked if i start digging through anything else i have, which isn't much... but still an exercise in futility none the less. the 64 bit jump ended it for me. jbridge, meh. it works but i have to fiddle with technical shit and wonder why this or that isn't showing up [today]. i get tired of technical shit. audio shit is more fun.

having said all that... Live almost NEVER crashes on me. so maybe that's the ticket.



on a side note, i just read this whole thread with it's fleshy hotdog background and what a relief it is to be typing in this box with a white background. it makes me stop squinting. i hate this new-ish website design. i'm glaring at you Ableton. the old site was clean and easy to read. you should ditch your VST-ish web design and get back to the original out of the box black and white.

EasyWorkflow
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by EasyWorkflow » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:53 pm

I started private lessons with an amazing Ableton Certified instructor out of TX. He said that there are so many sounds that can be created with Live 9 Suite, that I first must learn every instrument and become fluent in the sounds and instruments that came with Live 9. SO as they say, keep it simple until you master Live 9. I am learning Push now with Live 9 and that alone will take me months to master. Push does quite a bit more than people realize. If you own Push, just go to youtube and you will see people doing things you had no idea Push was capable of doing. At least I didn't because I only started using Push seriously about a month ago. It was too intimidating for me at first so I HAD to resort to private lessons to learn Ableton & Push which was best investment I ever made in music.

Machinesworking
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:00 am

pinkpaint wrote:I think theres one thing that is obvious here though: We would all like to see more native synths.
Whole heartedly disagree.

This website is mostly filled with people who use Live only, but I would venture a mild guess that more than half the people who buy Live also use a more fleshed out full featured DAW (SysEx, better video integration, audio editing etc.), like Pro Tools, Logic, Digital Performer, Cubase etc.

None of us have much use for plug ins that cannot work outside Live. Personally I own the AAS Suite, and that's 80% of Lives plug ins, which have been upgraded to newer versions in the last couple years while Live's versions remain at 128 parameter version one.

I would much rather see advances to the sequencer, MIDI and audio editing parts of Live than new plug ins. Things that cannot be added into Live via third party IMO are of a much higher importance than Ableton paying another third party developer like AAS, Cycling 74, etc. to make embedded versions.

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