Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
BoddAH
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by BoddAH » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:33 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
pinkpaint wrote:I think theres one thing that is obvious here though: We would all like to see more native synths.
Whole heartedly disagree.

This website is mostly filled with people who use Live only, but I would venture a mild guess that more than half the people who buy Live also use a more fleshed out full featured DAW (SysEx, better video integration, audio editing etc.), like Pro Tools, Logic, Digital Performer, Cubase etc.

None of us have much use for plug ins that cannot work outside Live. Personally I own the AAS Suite, and that's 80% of Lives plug ins, which have been upgraded to newer versions in the last couple years while Live's versions remain at 128 parameter version one.

I would much rather see advances to the sequencer, MIDI and audio editing parts of Live than new plug ins. Things that cannot be added into Live via third party IMO are of a much higher importance than Ableton paying another third party developer like AAS, Cycling 74, etc. to make embedded versions.
What you’re saying would be true for any other DAW. Why add native synths when you can just as easily use VSTis?
Live, however is a special snowflake. It’s designed from the ground up for live use and especially now with Push would greatly benefit from new or, at least updated native synths.

Any Live user also using Push knows how awkward using third-party VSTis with Push is. The only real way of playing Live and Push like an instrument is relying on the native devices and with the exception of Operator (which is cool in its own right) and Sampler (which is dependent on the quality of the (thankfully) often compatible sample libraries), the sound and features of Lives’ native synths is incredibly flat and dated.

I would Love to see some new synths or at least vastly improved current ones with the next version of Live. 8)

Tarekith
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Tarekith » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:59 pm

I'd have to agree with that for the Push reason too. Stick with Live's synths and it's mostly easy to control from Push, start using 3rd party stuff and it starts to fall down a bit.

Anyway, count me in the group that would love to see more synths built into Live, something I've been wishing for a few years now.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:39 am

BoddAH wrote: What you’re saying would be true for any other DAW. Why add native synths when you can just as easily use VSTis?
Live, however is a special snowflake. It’s designed from the ground up for live use and especially now with Push would greatly benefit from new or, at least updated native synths.

Any Live user also using Push knows how awkward using third-party VSTis with Push is. The only real way of playing Live and Push like an instrument is relying on the native devices and with the exception of Operator (which is cool in its own right) and Sampler (which is dependent on the quality of the (thankfully) often compatible sample libraries), the sound and features of Lives’ native synths is incredibly flat and dated.

I would Love to see some new synths or at least vastly improved current ones with the next version of Live. 8)
IMO anyway, the fact that Push works poorly with VSTs and AUs is not the fault of VSTs and AUs. Ableton decided to abandon the tried and true preset format and have their own version. Ableton decided to not pay AAS for the latest version of the plug ins they license from them, and to limit them to 128 parameters. I own Push and frankly I would rather see them integrate third party instruments further, than add random instruments to Suite. At the least update the AAS ones to match the latest versions.

And yes, it is trued for any DAW, but like I said Live is one of those DAWs that has a disproportionately high number of people who also use other DAWs. Plus, my main other DAW DP9 does not include any real instruments to speak of, just some basics. Neither does ReNoise, or Pro Tools etc. I'm not saying what I'm saying because I don't want Live to be a full solution, but rather because I get sick of 'good enough' with feature sets that could use improvements.

H20nly
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by H20nly » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:26 am

Machinesworking wrote:I would rather see them integrate third party instruments further, than add random instruments to Suite. At the least update the AAS ones to match the latest versions.
Absolutely agree

I mentioned earlier that I mostly only use Waves plugs for vocals (Chris Lord-Alge) but kinda glossed over how much I love AAS String Studio... I was thrilled that they released a 64 bit version for a small fee to upgrade to this version 2 from my 32 bit version 1. The more of their stuff Ableton knead in the better IMO

BoddAH
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by BoddAH » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:43 am

H20nly wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:I would rather see them integrate third party instruments further, than add random instruments to Suite. At the least update the AAS ones to match the latest versions.
Absolutely agree

I mentioned earlier that I mostly only use Waves plugs for vocals (Chris Lord-Alge) but kinda glossed over how much I love AAS String Studio... I was thrilled that they released a 64 bit version for a small fee to upgrade to this version 2 from my 32 bit version 1. The more of their stuff Ableton knead in the better IMO
The problem is that Ableton can’t unilaterally “integrate third party instruments further”. Ableton Live instrument presets are designed and laid out with Push in mind. With eight macro knobs that are clearly labeled and laid out in a consistent way. Third party plug-ins obviously are not.

For perfect hardware and software integration, there is no other way than developers of the software actively programming plug-ins to work with specific hardware.
This problem is hardly new either. It’s as old as MIDI-Controllers.

sporkles
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by sporkles » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:02 am

I can agree that holding off on VST's can be a good thing if you're just starting out making music in Live, but it all comes down to knowing your tools and finding the best workflow for you personally. To me, this begins with a basic template that gets you started quickly every time you start a new project. Also, using Live's "default track" feature is a good way to keep it simple. For instance, my default tracks contain an EQ8, a compressor and a rack with a limiter and a Utility. Very rarely do I all of a sudden get up and scream because the compressor isn't compressy enough or because the EQ8 doesn't equalize enough.

Beyond that point, I know that it's a lot easier for me to dial in synth patches (and of a much greater variety) in Massive than in Analog, so Massive is my go-to synth for most basic synth design. Also, I like a bit of glitchy effects sprinkle, and I know that it's a lot easier to get some interesting stuff out of specialist plugins from Sugar Bytes and Glitch Machines than racking up a bunch of Ableton devices, so I use the former.

Use what you know and know what you need.

baseinstinct
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by baseinstinct » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:33 pm

Good for you guys. Revelations are so rewarding. Some say creating instruments in reaktor is the way to go, because it gives you more basic control and greater technical knowledge of what actually happens. I can easily relate to that, however remotely, because for a long time after rebirth and impulse tracker I felt I was not living up to the complexity offered by cubase and ableton.

But then it is all about flow and magic. When I get into a creative trance, distinctions between tools no longer matter, and the discoveries made during those precious times guarantee nothing afterwards. Early song versions suck afterwards, but then, they lead to the later, more sophisticated ones. It is a safe bet that v 0.01 of Eros and Daphne was crap.

Two weeks ago I thought I had forever (re)discovered the essence of it all - fm synthesis. All seemed so simple, obvious, meaningful and spot on. It did not even matter that I chose to use qwerty and trademark lenovo joystick rather than push. Maybe it even helped to keep fewer tracks and stay more in arrangement view, but more probably, it did not matter. Arrangement view edition and automation in Live is so damn sufficient.

Some punch every beat with they mouths and others shuffle complete mastered tracks. Many years ago, in response to a similar thread someone posted two pictures by Picasso - a collage next to the a painting.

Enjoy!

login
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by login » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:09 pm

To me one of the problems I have using third paty.plug ins after using live so much is openning and closimg windows, it really annoys me.

So my biggest wish is that third party plug ins could have GUIs similar to native devices, it would make workflow so much better.

Machinesworking
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:53 am

BoddAH wrote:
H20nly wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:I would rather see them integrate third party instruments further, than add random instruments to Suite. At the least update the AAS ones to match the latest versions.
Absolutely agree

I mentioned earlier that I mostly only use Waves plugs for vocals (Chris Lord-Alge) but kinda glossed over how much I love AAS String Studio... I was thrilled that they released a 64 bit version for a small fee to upgrade to this version 2 from my 32 bit version 1. The more of their stuff Ableton knead in the better IMO
The problem is that Ableton can’t unilaterally “integrate third party instruments further”. Ableton Live instrument presets are designed and laid out with Push in mind. With eight macro knobs that are clearly labeled and laid out in a consistent way. Third party plug-ins obviously are not.

For perfect hardware and software integration, there is no other way than developers of the software actively programming plug-ins to work with specific hardware.
This problem is hardly new either. It’s as old as MIDI-Controllers.
I think you're misunderstanding something here. A good 80% of Lives embedded plug ins are actually AAS instruments.
Analog, Collision, Tension, and Electric are all AAS instruments. Ultra Analog, Chromaphone, String Studio, and Lounge Lizard are the AAS versions, and three of those are on version 2 whereas the Live versions are version 1. There's a shared road map there. AAS and Ableton could easily bring new features to the AAS embedded Live instruments with little suffering I'm sure.

There is this tendency among DAW developers, not just Ableton by any means, to ad on new things without regards to keeping the old ones in shape.

Wouldn't it be nice if more live performance improvements happened beyond selling us on their controller? Things like improvements to Follow Actions, macro scripts etc? I wouldn't mind a new synth, but a plethora of new synths, no or less changes to older features that greatly improve the experience would be a yawn fest of an upgrade to me.

pinkpaint
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by pinkpaint » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:02 pm

I'm sure abletons had this thought but it would be somewhat cool if they invented their own plugin format (at first this sounds horrible I know) to where third party developers could make their VST fit inside the native devices view.. that would please both push users (not me) and people who are looking for further integration for their third party vsts (me)

baseinstinct
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by baseinstinct » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:28 pm

What is wrong with vst 2 that requires amateurs to make the framework from ground up? It took live 9.2 versions to finally sort out the problem of lags in recorded material. What made me keep buying more expensive audiocards adn upgrading the daw, turned out to be programming issue; now the lags no longer appear even on a Lenovo of 2008.

The more formats, the more resources are wasted and the higher the price for less complete products.

I do not know about you guys, but in my case when I am running out of computer power it is when I also have so many effects on that I had better start rendering to audio. Computers are getting stronger every year.

Machinesworking
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:31 pm

pinkpaint wrote:I'm sure abletons had this thought but it would be somewhat cool if they invented their own plugin format (at first this sounds horrible I know) to where third party developers could make their VST fit inside the native devices view.. that would please both push users (not me) and people who are looking for further integration for their third party vsts (me)
Just what the world needs, another plug in format.

Basically you can integrate VSTs into Push, it requires you to assign plug in parameters in Live, then Rack up the plug in.
There is a way, it just requires you to work a bit. You Rack up the instrument assign Macros and go. Even looking at Collision, Ableton's own, it's only giving you about 12 parameters to tweak in Push.

tedlogan
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by tedlogan » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:59 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
pinkpaint wrote:I'm sure abletons had this thought but it would be somewhat cool if they invented their own plugin format (at first this sounds horrible I know) to where third party developers could make their VST fit inside the native devices view.. that would please both push users (not me) and people who are looking for further integration for their third party vsts (me)
Just what the world needs, another plug in format.

Basically you can integrate VSTs into Push, it requires you to assign plug in parameters in Live, then Rack up the plug in.
There is a way, it just requires you to work a bit. You Rack up the instrument assign Macros and go. Even looking at Collision, Ableton's own, it's only giving you about 12 parameters to tweak in Push.
I don't want more synths either really - just improving the ones we have already.

Also, why don't people vote for this? https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... 092B5B823F SUG-1013

"Bottom Line: the ability to edit how VSTs' banks and parameters are displayed on Push.

I would like to properly organize these banks: name them, have less than 8 parameters per bank if desired. I would like to rename the parameters too. I think this is very important to have.

A dedicated pop-up Configure panel, like Sampler's Zone editor, would be awesome. It could have cells representing banks of 8 subcells, in which you can drag parameters into, similar to drumracks. Here you can rename them, rename the bank, and perhaps even specify ranges for parameters, though not that important.

Even though you can only have 128 parameters mapped, more than 16 banks of 8 should still be possible (like with LIve's native custom devices mappings where you can have seemingly infinite banks) for alternate bank layouts. Example, one bank will have ADSR controls alongside say, velocity, trigger etc, and another bank would also have the same ADSR controls alongside another envelope's ADSR, so you can choose which bank to use for different workflows."

How can people not want that?

Btw, the mapping in my sig gives access to all of Collision's parameters on Push.

I still can't fucking believe how half-assed the default Push mappings are, it is just so sloppy.

H20nly
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Re: Why I stopped using most third party plug-ins

Post by H20nly » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:49 am

^nice

*bookmark*

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