Does streaming really help?

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H20nly
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by H20nly » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:29 pm

TomViolenz wrote:I would believe in the advertisment angle with a 2-3 times play limit per track. After that you buy it (with the direct convenient link provided as you mentioned) or you will never hear it again.
This would even have a great knock on effect with cheapskates, since they would continously have to search for new music. And getting more people exposed to new music is always a good thing IMO 8)
And I would also believe that this will fight piracy somewhat, because of the convenience to have the download link right there, to incorporate it directly into the library you use anyways, artwork and all.

But with how it is now, I'm afraid your behaviour is the exception. And one that will get even rarer as time marches on.
i dunno... another real world example... a friend and i were talking about the artist on True Detective season 2 that played a lot of the music for the show. she is seen/heard singing and strumming her guitar in many of the the bar scenes in the background. i told her this artist is somewhat of an enigma... a Canadian goth country music artist. she said she hadn't really paid attention. a few days later she says to me that while riding on the train to work she looked up this artist and then searched for her on Pandora, started a station, heard a couple of her tracks during the train ride, and finally bought the album. she played it while i was sitting on her porch just two nights ago.

so Pandora played a major role in what happened after the initial exposure (television) and her curiosity was peaked (word of mouth). Pandora is limited to liking, skipping to the next track, and buying. this friend of mine is generally a cheap skate about a lot of things... but Pandora fed her the artist and became the launch pad that led to the sale. had she not found her on Pandora, i have no doubt that she would have moved on and played a game or googled something else during that train ride.

TomViolenz
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:54 pm

H20nly wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:I would believe in the advertisment angle with a 2-3 times play limit per track. After that you buy it (with the direct convenient link provided as you mentioned) or you will never hear it again.
This would even have a great knock on effect with cheapskates, since they would continously have to search for new music. And getting more people exposed to new music is always a good thing IMO 8)
And I would also believe that this will fight piracy somewhat, because of the convenience to have the download link right there, to incorporate it directly into the library you use anyways, artwork and all.

But with how it is now, I'm afraid your behaviour is the exception. And one that will get even rarer as time marches on.
i dunno... another real world example... a friend and i were talking about the artist on True Detective season 2 that played a lot of the music for the show. she is seen/heard singing and strumming her guitar in many of the the bar scenes in the background. i told her this artist is somewhat of an enigma... a Canadian goth country music artist. she said she hadn't really paid attention. a few days later she says to me that while riding on the train to work she looked up this artist and then searched for her on Pandora, started a station, heard a couple of her tracks during the train ride, and finally bought the album. she played it while i was sitting on her porch just two nights ago.

so Pandora played a major role in what happened after the initial exposure (television) and her curiosity was peaked (word of mouth). Pandora is limited to liking, skipping to the next track, and buying. this friend of mine is generally a cheap skate about a lot of things... but Pandora fed her the artist and became the launch pad that led to the sale. had she not found her on Pandora, i have no doubt that she would have moved on and played a game or googled something else during that train ride.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pandora is more like radio right? Meaning she can make that station, and enter that starting song, but when she wants to listen to the song again, she can't. Right?
I have no problem with seeing this as advertisment and believe that this can lead to sales.
But with Spotify and co, she can listen to the song as often as she likes, just like it would be already in her possesion. I doubt with Spotify, considering the cheapskate she apparently is, she would have decided to buy the album, just to have the same experience after her purchase as she did before.

joeyfivecents
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by joeyfivecents » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:30 pm

H20nly wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:I would believe in the advertisment angle with a 2-3 times play limit per track. After that you buy it (with the direct convenient link provided as you mentioned) or you will never hear it again.
This would even have a great knock on effect with cheapskates, since they would continously have to search for new music. And getting more people exposed to new music is always a good thing IMO 8)
And I would also believe that this will fight piracy somewhat, because of the convenience to have the download link right there, to incorporate it directly into the library you use anyways, artwork and all.

But with how it is now, I'm afraid your behaviour is the exception. And one that will get even rarer as time marches on.
i dunno... another real world example... a friend and i were talking about the artist on True Detective season 2 that played a lot of the music for the show. she is seen/heard singing and strumming her guitar in many of the the bar scenes in the background. i told her this artist is somewhat of an enigma... a Canadian goth country music artist. she said she hadn't really paid attention. a few days later she says to me that while riding on the train to work she looked up this artist and then searched for her on Pandora, started a station, heard a couple of her tracks during the train ride, and finally bought the album. she played it while i was sitting on her porch just two nights ago.

That's Lera Lynn and she's actually from Georgia. She went to school at UGA. She's not from Canada nor is she Goth.
so Pandora played a major role in what happened after the initial exposure (television) and her curiosity was peaked (word of mouth). Pandora is limited to liking, skipping to the next track, and buying. this friend of mine is generally a cheap skate about a lot of things... but Pandora fed her the artist and became the launch pad that led to the sale. had she not found her on Pandora, i have no doubt that she would have moved on and played a game or googled something else during that train ride.
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joeyfivecents
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by joeyfivecents » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:31 pm

That's Lera Lynn and she's actually from Georgia. She went to school at UGA. She's not from Canada nor is she Goth.


Geez. I tried to quote someone's post and screwed it all up. Sorry
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H20nly
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by H20nly » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:36 pm

joeyfivecents wrote:That's Lera Lynn and she's actually from Georgia. She went to school at UGA. She's not from Canada nor is she Goth.


Geez. I tried to quote someone's post and screwed it all up. Sorry
oh snap! you're right!!

i got two conversations with the same girl mixed up... :oops: there is a Canadian goth country singer, but that's not her

point remains. Pandora helped the artist (Lera Lynn ffs!) sell an album.

H20nly
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by H20nly » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:46 pm

TomViolenz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pandora is more like radio right? Meaning she can make that station, and enter that starting song, but when she wants to listen to the song again, she can't. Right?
I have no problem with seeing this as advertisment and believe that this can lead to sales.
But with Spotify and co, she can listen to the song as often as she likes, just like it would be already in her possesion. I doubt with Spotify, considering the cheapskate she apparently is, she would have decided to buy the album, just to have the same experience after her purchase as she did before.
maybe, maybe not. she wanted to sample the artist's work... through the GLORY OF STREAMING she listened and bought the songs. the title of the thread is "Does streaming really help?", in this case, absolutely!

keep in mind too, that on Pandora she was not able to listen to 3 or 4 tracks in a row by this artist. she started a station with her name... so the first song is usually (but not always) a gimme in that situation and a song by the artist plays... so while she was waiting to hear more by Lera Lynn she was listening to more artists who also made a smidgen of money and received exposure.

now, i realize this last point may simply fuel your loathing for Spotify, and that's ok... as long as you bear in mind that this does still add to the proof that streaming can really help. you also can consider that maybe she wanted to listen to the track that she purchased (on her phone) on her iPod. with a purchase from iTunes she can do that... but she cannot listen to Spotify on that same iPod. so streaming praise Pandora and digital downloads praise Apple made is so the artist can afford... a Spotify subscription for one month. :lol:

TomViolenz
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:47 am

I have never been against streaming as a technical means. I'm absolutely ok with Pandora and how it works.
It's a boon to artists IMO.
Further I have made several suggestions how even more useful (to the artists) services could work.

What I have a huge problem with is the predatory, all-you-can-eat, how-ever-you-like-it business model of Spotify and Apple Music and the like, that obliterates the difference between owning your music and streaming it from these way too cheap or even free services.

I know getting points across on the internet can be pretty difficult at times, but I was sure I had made that much clear.

BaronVonAbelDong
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by BaronVonAbelDong » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:35 am

In 10 years time, none of us know what will exist or what will be. The focus is NOW. Not future potentialities.

Reality, in my experience, is that people DO still pay for tangible product outside of the big bad streaming companies... right now. H20 illustrates this. I have my own equivalent stories... and have proven to myself since the last debate on here that physical media does still sell. Right now. This month. Today.

Less than in the heydays sure, but we accept the stakes before playing the game right? If not, get off the playing field and let someone who's kitted up and playing have more of the pitch to manoeuvre.

To answer the OP, for me personally, because of genre and product, Spotify is 'take it or leave it' - I don't believe it helps or detracts, at the moment. But the point is, I'm on the pitch, playing with my own stakes, testing it first hand and can speak about it from experience. Not just shout from the sidelines, with nothing in the game.

I know people that are generating more than a full time income JUST from digital and streaming but only because they chose that model and worked it hard as a 'business' not just as an 'artist'. How many others truly put the hours in to do that?

Spotify etc. can help to promote a tangible product or it can help erode income, depending on the specific situation. Test it for ourselves and our own models and find out, report back with first hand experience and ideas and we'll all help each other. We can always stop or start using streaming... it's not permanent.

Jump in, have fun...

BaronVonAbelDong
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by BaronVonAbelDong » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:43 am

Tom, I don't want to poke a sleeping dog, so please understand this is a genuine question asked to better understand some of the comments you make.

You are very opinionated and vocal on the whole streaming/income aspect, which I can appreciate. However, when I go to your links, I don't find a way of even being able to get some income over to you in exchange for your music. Maybe I didn't look in the right place?

Do you have any digital or tangible product for sale or are your opinions based on ideas, perceptions and feedback of what is going on 'out there', rather than first hand experience?

If it doesn't come across online, I'm not being facetious.

Edit: To clarify and not start something off, I'm asking because, if you have a specific experience of how Spotify and Apple messed up your mojo then please share it so that we can all take it on board and maybe tread more carefully.

TomViolenz
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:55 am

BaronVonAbelDong wrote:Tom, I don't want to poke a sleeping dog, so please understand this is a genuine question asked to better understand some of the comments you make.

You are very opinionated and vocal on the whole streaming/income aspect, which I can appreciate. However, when I go to your links, I don't find a way of even being able to get some income over to you in exchange for your music. Maybe I didn't look in the right place?

Do you have any digital or tangible product for sale or are your opinions based on ideas, perceptions and feedback of what is going on 'out there', rather than first hand experience?

If it doesn't come across online, I'm not being facetious.

Edit: To clarify and not start something off, I'm asking because, if you have a specific experience of how Spotify and Apple messed up your mojo then please share it so that we can all take it on board and maybe tread more carefully.
My first album is what it is, unsellable and not for sale.
I'm in the process of producing much more approachable and live playable music, with which I plan to become enough of an artist to sustain myself with (really, what else can you do with your life in a fucked up world like this?!).
So I'm talking mostly about my future intentions and how I see it playing out.

My existing music will then always stay that little uncomfortable piece of very personal art that speaks of my humanity.
And it will do so eternally for free.

BaronVonAbelDong
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by BaronVonAbelDong » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:13 pm

TomViolenz wrote: (really, what else can you do with your life in a fucked up world like this?!).
:)

Thanks for responding. If your live work (I assume that's what you intend) will prosper by people finding your music on global streaming services, would you consider using them?

The scenario I'm painting is that you are earning more than enough as a 'gigging' artist, that you forego the majority of physical media sales, and use the streaming 'system' we are discussing to bring in more income from your appearances. That is a valid model right?

Or would you accept a lower amount of (and possibly pay from) live dates, and no global streaming exposure etc to try and sustain some form of physical media sales of your music?

Will you promote at all? YouTube? etc?

Again, not trolling. Always interested in people's 'models'.

TomViolenz
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by TomViolenz » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:00 pm

BaronVonAbelDong wrote:
TomViolenz wrote: (really, what else can you do with your life in a fucked up world like this?!).
:)

Thanks for responding. If your live work (I assume that's what you intend) will prosper by people finding your music on global streaming services, would you consider using them?

The scenario I'm painting is that you are earning more than enough as a 'gigging' artist, that you forego the majority of physical media sales, and use the streaming 'system' we are discussing to bring in more income from your appearances. That is a valid model right?

Or would you accept a lower amount of (and possibly pay from) live dates, and no global streaming exposure etc to try and sustain some form of physical media sales of your music?

Will you promote at all? YouTube? etc?

Again, not trolling. Always interested in people's 'models'.
I will boycott the services with predatory practices like Spotify and Apple Music except for maybe one single representative track, so that the drones on these services know I even exist. But if they want more they will have to go elsewhere. Same with youtube.

But Pandora sounds decent and I will probably stream live gigs from my yet to be made website. Though I won't stream live, as that would be way too much hassle to set up.
As a distributer I will probably use Bandcamp. I like their attitude and also how their storefront looks/works.
I just wish they would allow payment with Bitcoins, so that my fans retain the possibility to escape all data mining.

BaronVonAbelDong
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by BaronVonAbelDong » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:34 pm

Thanks. I'd be interested to know which part you find you need to adjust in that plan as you reach it. Hope it works out for you.

Apologies to the OP for any hijack, although it's kind of relevant.

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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by arctic ranger » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:13 pm

Kind of ot, but the only way to make money nowadays is to separate your tracks into its parts and start a label up by selling your loops. :evil:

I would be interested to know the difference of sales on beatport between lot49 records and loop49
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TomViolenz
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Re: Does streaming really help?

Post by TomViolenz » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:23 pm

Considering that the market for loops is much smaller and that piracy is rampant there too, I doubt it amounts to much.

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