Does streaming really help?

[BaronVonAbelDong]

I would bet money on the odds of 'Heavy Sounds For Instant Success Volume 379' sample pack turning more of a profit than a random new album. The purchase price and perceived value of a sample pack is double or triple. So sure, you'll get some pirating always, but your margins are way higher than any format of album release no?

No one 'needs' our music, but we're all convinced we need the tools of the trade... and lots of them. It's the whole 'sell shovels in a gold rush' thing.

"Who got rich during the California gold rush era? HINT: it wasn't the gold miners. The answer is: The people who sold the miners and other gold rush followers the tools and supplies they needed.

Think about that. Millions of dollars of gold were extracted and the people who got rich were the ones who sold shovels and the other essentials that miners needed to find the gold."

For a majority, the gold is pretty much all gone anyway (and there's thousands more people mining for it now) so the DJ/Producer gold rush is what we're moving out of (the 'musician' gold rush happened decades ago!)... yet the tools are probably selling more than ever. Isn't that right Ableton/Native Instruments/Akai - Loopmasters/Prime Loops/BlahBlahBlah?

Although...

"What happens though when there are, not one, not ten, but hundreds of people selling shovels? The market becomes flooded with shovels. There are so many people selling shovels that a price war breaks out. Soon you can buy shovels for as little as $1."

Who would stay down a gold mine full of thousands of others (compared to what used to be only a handful of people) looking to tap into a new seam of gold? Who would deliberately choose to keep mining under those conditions, but then stand around complaining that it isn't like it used to be?

For now, I still choose to think where there is a will there is a way. So sure... get the loops and sample packs on the go, before they're selling for $1.

[mikb]

...the only way to ...

No matter in which context these three words are a surefire tell of a false statement and a self fulfilling prophecy. There are always options . It's a matter of sharpening your ability of noticing.them and to find out where to dig for them.

I know there is a market for music because I spend on tracks and I know I'm not alone. As for making my own releases I'm thinking that the music iitself s not enough. There has to be something that takes the emotional place of the fragrance and tactility of vinyl just to mention one aspect. You also need to consider the 'gamification' aspects that is part of the relationship to a piece of music and more importantly to its creator.

This is clearly spilling out of the area where at least some musicians feel comfortable to operate, which makes me think Labels can continue to play an important role.

[TomViolenz]

I would bet money on the odds of 'Heavy Sounds For Instant Success Volume 379' sample pack turning more of a profit than a random new album. The purchase price and perceived value of a sample pack is double or triple. So sure, you'll get some pirating always, but your margins are way higher than any format of album release no?

Well the overall margins matter little if the volume of sales is low. Econ 101

I mean we may be under the impression that everyone and his dog is dabbling with loops and sample packs nowadays, but compared to actual listeners the amount is minuscule.

Further I would think that there is a fairly big overlap between the people who use loops and those who pirate. i.e. teens just looking to be cool without much effort.


I also think that selling loops is not without dangers.
If you are already quite known, then sure, selling loops is not like giving away the keys to the kingdom, your Coca Cola recipe if you will, because people will recognize it for what it is, yours.
But if you are not so well known yet, you just invited the competition to use your mojo.

[BaronVonAbelDong]

Well the overall margins matter little if the volume of sales is low

It matters. Unless you are going to extreme levels... Michael Jackson Vs. a start up synth preset seller. Likewise, high volume at Spotify rates is equally pointless. There are pockets where a happy medium can be reached. I'm interested in those. Not writing them off without trying because of what 'I think'.

but compared to actual listeners the amount is minuscule.

Apples v. Oranges. As you personally are focusing on a live model then maybe listeners is what you are targeting. Others are not. Ableton isn't. Most tool sellers are not. I don't see how you can cross compare two different models, just because they are based in audio?

Tool creators don't need the audience of a pop star to have a viable model. You of all people should understand this concept with todays 'listener' rates, unless again you're talking live events. I'm not. I'm talking selling media, as per our other communications.

Personally I would take a 'minuscule' group of 500 or 1000 people that would buy a 'pack/preset' every few months @ $25 over the amount of 'listeners' that a 'regular joe' music maker can get. Excluding ticket/event prices, because I don't do that anymore.

Arctic Ranger, if you're interested in being optimistic about selling tools then I can say, for sure, that a 'friend of a friend' is making anything from $5k to $10k + per pack, and does several a year. Another friend takes a different line and makes personal sample packs for people and sells them one to one. Sure, a big name behind it, as with anything, will help... but the doors are wide open, right now, today, for ANYONE that wants to give it a shot.

For example, here's a guy, with no prior reputation, being given a leg up and hopefully he can snowball it from this position:
http://www.pluginguru.com/guru-products/kidanthem

Get stuck in and prove it to yourself first. If we are not doing that personally or have first hand stats and feedback, then what we are discussing here is just supposition, and that's detrimental to us all pushing forward.

[TomViolenz]

Personally I would take a 'minuscule' group of 500 or 1000 people that would buy a 'pack/preset' every few months @ $25

No I certainly wouldn't call these numbers miniscule, only a bit hard to believe.

Are these real numbers, or did they just sound good to you for making an argument?

I never bought sample packs or loop packs, so pardon my ignorance, but is 25USD really a price people pay for an album worth of loops? And where do I find these people?

[BaronVonAbelDong]

I have no agenda or reason to invent. I don't post if I can help it. This topic pulls me in though and hopefully it's for a good cause.
Numbers are not made up, but are though a branded, established website, not sold direct from artist/creator.

It's like signing a record deal in the good old days, to get the exposure. Not saying it's easy, but then neither is any of it.

Aaaanyway... back on topic, I still don't know if streaming helps.

[mmorgan]

...
Who would deliberately choose to keep mining under those conditions...
...

Well I for one will keep on mining because I love the process of creativity.

I think your points about merchants vs miners in the gold rush(es) are apropos though. However, is it really the same apples to apples comparison? My feeling is that library/pack creation is more of a job than composing and/or playing...

Regarding the "2 Stream or Not 2 Stream...that is the question". My view is if it helps you then do it. But don't suppose that because it works for you that everyone is just dying to jump on that bandwagon.

[TomViolenz]

I have no agenda or reason to invent. I don't post if I can help it.

I wasn't so much accusing you of an agenda. I was rather wondering if you just did some quick math in your head that sounded good to you, without having any more knowledge about the topic.

Numbers are not made up, but are through a branded, established website, not sold direct from artist/creator.

But I have the feeling that changes the deal quite a bit.
Are these services really selling: "The loops from the latest album X of artist Y"?

Or is it not rather: 1000 new Trap loops for instant fame?

The first I would absolutely support in the name of the democratization of art, since it is a more hands on version of it, involving the listener in the process of making it.
Especially since it would be rather easy to turn my album into many loops for an additional revenue stream.

The later turns me into a loop making machine, wasting my creative time on things unrelated to my art and it further oversimplifies the concept of it to the point that I turn my head in disgust.

[BaronVonAbelDong]

...
Who would deliberately choose to keep mining under those conditions...
...

Well I for one will keep on mining because I love the process of creativity.

That was my point exactly. I love it too. It was a two part question.

a) Who would choose to do it? - People that love it (hopefully)
b) Who would CHOOSE to do it and complain about there being no sustainable income? - 'insert your own answer here'

However, is it really the same apples to apples comparison?

I agree. I actually wrote:

Apples v. Oranges.

http://pluginguru.com/guru-products/kidanthem was the example I used. Instead of coming home and making tracks, he loves making presets... he may consider the pain of having to make music a job. Apples vs. Oranges. I try to convey that there are still opportunities out there, right now, today, that don't suggest everything is doom and gloom. Forget Spotify anyway, it's not the be all and end all, just a useful catalogue or tool, depending on your model.

Edited: Just to be clear I'm agreeing with you.

[BaronVonAbelDong]

But I have the feeling that changes the deal quite a bit.
Are these services really selling: "The loops from the latest album X of artist Y"?

Or is it not rather: 1000 new Trap loops for instant fame?

The first I would absolutely support in the name of the democratization of art, since it is a more hands on version of it, involving the listener in the process of making it.
Especially since it would be rather easy to turn my album into many loops for an additional revenue stream.

The later turns me into a loop making machine, wasting my creative time on things unrelated to my art and it further oversimplifies the concept of it to the point that I turn my head in disgust.

Ok, my mistake totally. Yes, '1000 new trap loops for instant fame', not decompiling your album. I don't particularly agree with doing that, but that's a personal thing. Takes the magic away for me personally, especially if done for the sake of extra revenue. I don't want to see behind the curtain. I genuinely would rather sell T-shirts than do that.

It would be a small market, as you say.

I don't feel disgusted at loop making machines, if that is what they love doing, or are doing it to support their families etc. No beef at all. That people can buy 'paint by numbers' packs or presets has no bearing at all on what I do with my music. More power to them if it supports their art. Most of us need a 'day job' and making sample packs is not hurting anyone, that I have realised yet at least.

[BaronVonAbelDong]

...the only way to ...

There are always options . It's a matter of sharpening your ability of noticing.them and to find out where to dig for them.

I know there is a market for music because I spend on tracks and I know I'm not alone. As for making my own releases I'm thinking that the music iitself s not enough. There has to be something that takes the emotional place of the fragrance and tactility of vinyl just to mention one aspect. You also need to consider the 'gamification' aspects that is part of the relationship to a piece of music and more importantly to its creator.

This is clearly spilling out of the area where at least some musicians feel comfortable to operate, which makes me think Labels can continue to play an important role.

+1

[TomViolenz]

I don't feel disgusted at loop making machines, if that is what they love doing, or are doing it to support their families etc. No beef at all. That people can buy 'paint by numbers' packs or presets has no bearing at all on what I do with my music. More power to them if it supports their art. Most of us need a 'day job' and making sample packs is not hurting anyone, that I have realised yet at least.

I'm not disgusted with the people, but with the concept
I certainly don't want any part in it. As a creative worker it's soul crushing tedious work and boring and as a concept it enables the lazy and unimaginative.
And I don't know about you, but I can be disgusted with things even though they hurt no one

[BaronVonAbelDong]

And I don't know about you, but I can be disgusted with things even though they hurt no one

I think I've seen that film!

[mrdelurk]

Today I planned to release a remix that will be only on Bandcamp and my own site, but stream nowhere else to compare the sales numbers with the AppleMusic, etc. streamed one.

Except now Bandcamp embeds on Facebook don't get a Play button anymore? (Unlike my older one, which still has it.) What the frigg. More cloak & dagger stuff is going on...

[BaronVonAbelDong]

Do let us know your findings mate. Would be interested to know.