setting up a drum bus??

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brian sansone
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:37 am

setting up a drum bus??

Post by brian sansone » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:15 pm

Well I thought I knew what how to set up a bus in Live.

So I route several tracks hosting drum sounds ( played by a simpler) over to a track named "Drum Bus"

That way I can process the drum sounds all together. but.... I also have a return channel set up with parallel compression.
The processed compression signal is sent to the master track.

So If I try to do a filter sweep on the drums via a filter on the "drum Bus" track, the drum bus signal affected, but the parallel
compression signal is not affected. I want to do a sweep on the entirety of drums.

So I thought I could just send the parallel compression signal to the drum bus . That way all the drum audio is running through the drum bus
and can be processed as a whole.

When I do that , something goes horribly wrong. The audio coming out sound terrible with what sounds like phasing problems.

What am I missing??

Brian

Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:23 pm

brian sansone wrote: So I thought I could just send the parallel compression signal to the drum bus . That way all the drum audio is running through the drum bus
and can be processed as a whole.

When I do that , something goes horribly wrong. The audio coming out sound terrible with what sounds like phasing problems.

What am I missing??
First of all this doesn't happen to me when I try it with Waves C4 on the return. Is possibly your Delay Compensation off or the Reduced Latency When Monitoring on?

How much latency does the compressor on the return add? Mine is 64 samples.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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brian sansone
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:37 am

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by brian sansone » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:57 am

Stromkraft wrote:
brian sansone wrote: So I thought I could just send the parallel compression signal to the drum bus . That way all the drum audio is running through the drum bus
and can be processed as a whole.

When I do that , something goes horribly wrong. The audio coming out sound terrible with what sounds like phasing problems.

What am I missing??
First of all this doesn't happen to me when I try it with Waves C4 on the return. Is possibly your Delay Compensation off or Reduced Latency When Monitoring on?

How much latency does the compressor on the return add? Mine is 64 samples.

well the problem only arises when I try send the return signal to my drum bus, instead of the master track. Not sure what i missing, unless I'm just introducing a bunch of latency by sending audio this way instead of that way.

Winterpark
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Winterpark » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:33 am

The solution is not to use a return channel for your parallel processing.

Just group the FX that you're currently using on the return on the drum bus channel, and then create a new 'empty' chain. The chain volumes now become your wet/dry FX.
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Stromkraft
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Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:52 pm

Winterpark wrote:The solution is not to use a return channel for your parallel processing.

Just group the FX that you're currently using on the return on the drum bus channel, and then create a new 'empty' chain. The chain volumes now become your wet/dry FX.
That's great unless you need to send something else to the same chain. Also, there is probably a reason why I'm not experiencing this issue in my setup.
Make some music!

brian sansone
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:37 am

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by brian sansone » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:17 am

Winterpark wrote:The solution is not to use a return channel for your parallel processing.

Just group the FX that you're currently using on the return on the drum bus channel, and then create a new 'empty' chain. The chain volumes now become your wet/dry FX.

I did try that too. The signal just didnt seem as clear and good as using a return. That would be a great solution because I use lots of drum track,
mostly processed separately, using parallel compression for most. Maybe I just need to fine tune that method(or do it better/correctly).
Something just didnt sound right though.

I did figure out that you can send audio from one track to another track, and have the receiving track's input set to "no input",
and you get an clean audio signal; but if you set the receiving track's input to receive from the sending track, the volume jumps way up, like your
getting a doubling of audio signal. So I determined that I should set the bus track's input to "no audio", and then send all my drum sounds there .
I think that solved part of the problem. I was getting two signals , when I though I had one.

So I got a good parallel compression signal/mix that way , still using a return track to host the compressor. But...???? if I add a limiter on the
drum buss, I get that same horrible phasing sound. And it doesnt matter if I put the limiter on the return track or the drum buss track?? It has something to do with live's limiter's look ahead function. The phasing sound changes with changing the look ahead values. And here is something really weird!;
it still phases even if I turn the limiter OFF. I have to delete it off the channel to stop the phasing!

I did figure out an even easier solution. I just put the auto filter (for filter sweeps ) on the drum buss, BEFORE the signal goes to the return track.
Then I just send the return signal on to the master like normal. I do still want to know what I'm missing.


Thanks for the input!
Brian

brian sansone
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:37 am

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by brian sansone » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:24 am

Stromkraft wrote:
Winterpark wrote:The solution is not to use a return channel for your parallel processing.

Just group the FX that you're currently using on the return on the drum bus channel, and then create a new 'empty' chain. The chain volumes now become your wet/dry FX.
That's great unless you need to send something else to the same chain. Also, there is probably a reason why I'm not experiencing this issue in my setup.

exactly. Its got to be something in my set up that i'm missing or screwing up. Maybe even something specific to my computer, which has an overly complicated
consumer audio set up. This issue happens at home on my headphones. I need to check if I have the same problem at my studio , running through
my audio interface. I just thought of that.

Winterpark
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Winterpark » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:40 am

brian sansone wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
Winterpark wrote:The solution is not to use a return channel for your parallel processing.

Just group the FX that you're currently using on the return on the drum bus channel, and then create a new 'empty' chain. The chain volumes now become your wet/dry FX.
That's great unless you need to send something else to the same chain. Also, there is probably a reason why I'm not experiencing this issue in my setup.

exactly. Its got to be something in my set up that i'm missing or screwing up. Maybe even something specific to my computer, which has an overly complicated
consumer audio set up. This issue happens at home on my headphones. I need to check if I have the same problem at my studio , running through
my audio interface. I just thought of that.
It's relatively easy to add another element to a group... just drag that channel into the grouped channels.... Have you tried cmd-G of channels to create a group? or just setting them up Live's old way with the audio to and from options available in the i/o?

By doing the cmd-g track grouping you get a dedicated send for the group, rather than individual channels, which potentially will solve your filtering problem....

But, the only reason I'd see that you'd want to do parallel processing via sends is if you want to dial only specific elements into that parallel mix.... or dial differing balance between the elements to that parallel mix. Perhaps this is what you're doing?

The phasing problem you're hearing sounds like comb-filtering to me.... and it's being introduced when you add the return channel's signal back into the group for filtering.... another way around it, is to route all the audio from the drum bus and the drum return bus to a new channel (via the i/o method) and put the filter on that.
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Stromkraft
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Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:14 am

Winterpark wrote: The phasing problem you're hearing sounds like comb-filtering to me.... and it's being introduced when you add the return channel's signal back into the group for filtering.... another way around it, is to route all the audio from the drum bus and the drum return bus to a new channel (via the i/o method) and put the filter on that.
What could be the difference in setup that is a likely reason I don't encounter this you reckon?
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Winterpark
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Winterpark » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:24 am

Stromkraft wrote: What could be the difference in setup that is a likely reason I don't encounter this you reckon?
Do you also send the signal from the return channel back into the drum bus like the OP states?
brian sansone wrote: So I thought I could just send the parallel compression signal to the drum bus . That way all the drum audio is running through the drum bus
and can be processed as a whole.
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Stromkraft
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Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:49 pm

Winterpark wrote:
Stromkraft wrote: What could be the difference in setup that is a likely reason I don't encounter this you reckon?
Do you also send the signal from the return channel back into the drum bus like the OP states?
brian sansone wrote: So I thought I could just send the parallel compression signal to the drum bus . That way all the drum audio is running through the drum bus
and can be processed as a whole.
Yes, as I've already stated I have done that. Are you getting the same phasing or garble issues? I have zero issues doing this.

I do know that audio routing has some counter-intuitive results from time to time.
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Winterpark
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Winterpark » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:56 am

Mine definitely does has phasing issues when I route the return back into the drum bus, with both C4 and Live's compressor. But this to me is an expected result of this sort of routing. It also changes the 'phased' comb-filtering sound when I change the buffer size.
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Stromkraft
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Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:50 pm

Winterpark wrote:Mine definitely does has phasing issues when I route the return back into the drum bus, with both C4 and Live's compressor. But this to me is an expected result of this sort of routing. It also changes the 'phased' comb-filtering sound when I change the buffer size.
Could you please share a project so I can compare? Splice?
Make some music!

Winterpark
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Winterpark » Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:48 am

Stromkraft wrote:
Winterpark wrote:Mine definitely does has phasing issues when I route the return back into the drum bus, with both C4 and Live's compressor. But this to me is an expected result of this sort of routing. It also changes the 'phased' comb-filtering sound when I change the buffer size.
Could you please share a project so I can compare? Splice?
Sure thing. I've just invited 'Stromkraft' to a project... I assume that's you!
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Stromkraft
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Re: setting up a drum bus??

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:09 pm

Winterpark wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
Winterpark wrote:Mine definitely does has phasing issues when I route the return back into the drum bus, with both C4 and Live's compressor. But this to me is an expected result of this sort of routing. It also changes the 'phased' comb-filtering sound when I change the buffer size.
Could you please share a project so I can compare? Splice?
Sure thing.
Strange thing. I hear the issues clearly enough in the project you shared. When I do a route of this type in an existing project I can't hear those issues. I have to do some more tests, but it seems clear this is a real issue.
Make some music!

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