Surface Laptop: 1.6 pounds and real damn fast

[Angstrom]

I really admire how Bitwig is siezing this opportunity to transform more and more into its own unique environment. They set a tone that said 'we'll do things we hoped Live could do', which essentially came off as seeming like a cheap imitation. They have introduced most of the unique features promised, and now with their touch integration, the layout is nearly unrecognizable, and unique/new. So I am happy that they are finding an identity.

From what I’ve heard Bitwig still has some weirdness and some basic functions missing. But I guess “finally works as it should!” doesn’t move product or get people’s attention.

Well Live still has a hell of a lot of bugs too, and some very basic functions missing, and I can list off some very weird broken things that Live does, and here we are. L9.2

[beats me]

I really admire how Bitwig is siezing this opportunity to transform more and more into its own unique environment. They set a tone that said 'we'll do things we hoped Live could do', which essentially came off as seeming like a cheap imitation. They have introduced most of the unique features promised, and now with their touch integration, the layout is nearly unrecognizable, and unique/new. So I am happy that they are finding an identity.

From what I’ve heard Bitwig still has some weirdness and some basic functions missing. But I guess “finally works as it should!” doesn’t move product or get people’s attention.

Well Live still has a hell of a lot of bugs too, and some very basic functions missing, and I can list off some very weird broken things that Live does, and here we are. L9.2

Fair enough. But if Live got all multi touch display optimized would you forget about all of Live’s other shortcomings? Cause that seems to be what is going on with the Bigwig contingency.

[Angstrom]

Fair enough. But if Live got all multi touch display optimized would you forget about all of Live’s other shortcomings? Cause that seems to be what is going on with the Bigwig contingency.

I think people are simply impressed by what they've done in a version 1
They may not have every single feature of a version 9, but it's pretty shocking that we are now waiting for Ableton to catch up in many areas. Poly Aftertouch, per note expression, etc. Even the L9.2 multi monitor surprise inclusion came directly from the pressure they felt because Bitwig v1 had it. A feature which so many users had asked for.

That is why people comment on their progress. It's impressive. People are rightly amazed at the speed of a company 1/50th the size of Ableton

What amazes me is when people cant see how impressive that progress is. They did all this in version 1.
There are the people who think that a version 1 app in 2015 should somehow automatically include every single DAW feature ever of, because the year is 2015. It took 3 years for ableton to add the changes from L8 to L9, most of which were bollocks. A weird browser, shit note auto-snapping, whistle a bassline.

Oh wait ... L9 added recording automation in session. Yes. Version 9 added that. Version 9.

Compare the two companies productivity over those 3 years. And month by month Bitwig add these huge features in point versions. What next - comping in version 1.4? Melodyne ARA ?

What will the headline features of Live 10 be?
Poly aftertouch?
Metaclips / arrangement groups?
Multitouch?

Seriously. Ableton have to lead their L10 release with some features which are not already in the version 1 of a cheaper competitor.

It's this direct comparison which reflects poorly on Ableton.

[yur2die4]

I'm not comparing anything.

That's the point. Live is not Sonar or Stage One.

Bigwig is not Live or Logic.

Some developers are adding multitouch.

Bitwig has done so to the point that it makes for an extremely impressive product demo.
It seems like something that fits naturally, instead of just slapped on top of it.

Have you glanced at the videos of Bitwig's touch implementation? They're really impressive!

iPads have the edge over windows for music 'apps' because there is nothing on windows for music that was designed For touch. Touch was always the afterthought. That, and Windows touch implementation just does not feel the same (I do not know why, I'd it is the software environment, the hardware, the developers).

Bitwig is demonstrating how much closer we can be to fitting a creative musical application with most of the bells and whistles on a full blown windows tablet, and still feel flexible and natural from the touch perspective.

Glance at the pics of Bitwig 1.3 on screens and compare them to images of Live on people's screens.
Bitwig doesn't look anything like Live anymore. It's evolving With the technology and developing its own identity.

Does Live need a lasso tool and audio editor?
Does Bitwig lack certain features?
Does a 303 have polyphony?
They are each their own items that play by their own rules.

[mekanism1200]

All I know is Ableton better get their shit together, make a stable program, that has touch support in the future or they will be left behind. Ableton is like Apple these days, stagnant and lacking innovation. If 10 isn't free, doesn't have touch support and isn't stable I'm bailing. I suspect many people arent far behind.

[beats me]

Fair enough. But if Live got all multi touch display optimized would you forget about all of Live’s other shortcomings? Cause that seems to be what is going on with the Bigwig contingency.

I think people are simply impressed by what they've done in a version 1
They may not have every single feature of a version 9, but it's pretty shocking that we are now waiting for Ableton to catch up in many areas. Poly Aftertouch, per note expression, etc. Even the L9.2 multi monitor surprise inclusion came directly from the pressure they felt because Bitwig v1 had it. A feature which so many users had asked for.

That is why people comment on their progress. It's impressive. People are rightly amazed at the speed of a company 1/50th the size of Ableton

What amazes me is when people cant see how impressive that progress is. They did all this in version 1.
There are the people who think that a version 1 app in 2015 should somehow automatically include every single DAW feature ever of, because the year is 2015. It took 3 years for ableton to add the changes from L8 to L9, most of which were bollocks. A weird browser, shit note auto-snapping, whistle a bassline.

Oh wait ... L9 added recording automation in session. Yes. Version 9 added that. Version 9.

Compare the two companies productivity over those 3 years. And month by month Bitwig add these huge features in point versions. What next - comping in version 1.4? Melodyne ARA ?

What will the headline features of Live 10 be?
Poly aftertouch?
Metaclips / arrangement groups?
Multitouch?

Seriously. Ableton have to lead their L10 release with some features which are not already in the version 1 of a cheaper competitor.

It's this direct comparison which reflects poorly on Ableton.

But didn’t a lot of the Bitwig developers come from Ableton? Not exactly starting from scratch. They probably got frustrated with wanted features that Ableton didn’t have on their roadmap and with all the excitement of putting those in their new product they kind of made some standard features low priority.

I haven’t used Live in years (shut up, I’m still here because I enjoy talking to myself and other lingering members) and don’t own Bitwig so I’m wondering if I would find Bitwig refreshing or quickly run into the lacking functions people are complaining about. I own Live 8 and upgraded every version since 5. Nothing in 9 excited me to upgrade. Potential bugs aside, I can’t imagine upgrading to 9 would cause the same exploration excitement (or frustration) as trying a completely different DAW.

[scheffkoch]

...ableton live including m4l is absolutely rock solid on my computer and i have an ipad with touchable...don't need more at the moment...

[TomViolenz]

If 10 isn't free

What drugs are you on?!

[mekanism1200]

If 10 isn't free

What drugs are you on?!

Must be the same drugs that every owner of FL studio are on. That business model works for them, why not for Ableton?

[TomViolenz]

If 10 isn't free

What drugs are you on?!

Must be the same drugs that every owner of FL studio are on.

Owners of FL studio think Ableton Live should be free?

Who knew...

[mekanism1200]

So you want to pay hundreds for every update after paying so much for it already? Hmmmm, I wish I had your money! My point is that current owners of FL Studio are updated for life, no more having to pay for updates. They (Image-Line) are still in business so it obviously works for them. I honestly wouldn't mind paying for updates if the price is reasonable. I'm not going to pay hundreds of dollars for an update though, especially when I can buy a whole DAW for $300, like Bitwig, Studio One... etc. Ableton is awesome, but not THAT awesome!

[TomViolenz]

So you want to pay hundreds for every update after paying so much for it already? Hmmmm, I wish I had your money!

There was literally nothing written that should lead you to that conclusion.
Logic or even reading comprehension is not your strong suite huh?

And unless you live under a bridge in a cardboard box I can assure you, you don't wish you had my money

None of that makes it any less delusional to think Live 10 will be a free update. And talking about it like it is not, makes you either a fool or a troll.

[mekanism1200]

So you want to pay hundreds for every update after paying so much for it already? Hmmmm, I wish I had your money!

There was literally nothing written that should lead you to that conclusion.
Logic or even reading comprehension is not your strong suite huh?

And unless you live under a bridge in a cardboard box I can assure you, you don't wish you had my money

None of that makes it any less delusional to think Live 10 will be a free update. And talking about it like it is not, makes you either a fool or a troll.

Oh, so your "that" guy on these forums. Sorry my bad. I'm sure you will have some other witty remark to add. You can have the last word, be my guest. I forgot why I even bother with this forum. Back to making music...

[[jur]]

May I remind you how much nice and constructive it is when people share their opinions without being agressive, without violenz?
I know this can sound utopian, but we're in the digital world where everything's possible right!
Thank you.

[H20nly]

as a person who used FL Studio early on and can still take advantage of the free upgrades over a decade later, i'd like to politely call bullshit.

the main app is free upgrades. the 5000 add ons they try and sell you afterward are not. you can easily spend $1500 (or more) on FL Studio if you chose too. THAT is how they make their continuing revenue.

Ableton sells Vanilla Live for more than (most versions of) FL Studio, but it comes with the ability to effectively record audio and numerous other things that FL studio either does not have or has but is questionably implemented or strapped on with duct tape later... such as that horrid Edison in FL Studio for recording vocals. the upgrade pricing for Vanilla Live is not that far fetched. it is a little pricey, but it's not out of range. it can also do a lot more than step sequence, including record audio like a professional DAW.

one thing i've always liked about owning Live Suite... i NEVER get to a point where Live shows me a greyed out menu for a feature that i could have if i purchase the unlock for it.

i have a lot of love for FL Studio, but i've also had to navigate that atrocious website of theirs and had a shower of addon/plugin offers in emails (59 bucks here, 99 bucks there). it's a cool and powerful tool... to a point, but the strap-on nature of it is all over the place. it's just a MIDI sequencer at it's core. i love programming drums in it, but it's no Live, Cubase, or Logic, etc. once you whip out a mic, guitar, or a keyboard... FL Studio suddenly needs to stand in the corner and watch. it offers next to nothing for DJs and has no use in a live performance setting whatsoever.