Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
igneous
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:40 am

Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by igneous » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:29 pm

I was playing jazz with a saxophonist tonight, and it got me thinking about instruments and genres, and changing styles.

Though electronic-beat-music is super common these days across many genres, I've found myself growing a bit weary of it. Styles come and go, and there's no doubt the kind of bass-heavy electronic beat music that's king right now is just the current style, and will be enjoyed by us old folks in 50 years time, much like jazz has an old audience now.

The workflow of Ableton, with it's clip launching and drum-rack architecture, and extensive MIDI overdub and automation tools, is optimized for this kind of music. But, as I personally am moving towards a more fluid, electro-acoustic kind of music (involving more instruments, musicians, microphones and subtle warped loops and effects), I'm feeling the limitations with Ableton, which seems optimized for additive beat-making and production in particular. Will this live-performance tool, which I've invested a huge amount of time in learning, end up as a tool optimized for the additive beat-music of the 2010's?

As we move into Ableton X, and beyond, will Abelton simply hone their feature set that they have (there's always lot of honing to do), or will we see major innovations in software and controllers that will move with us into the future? Or do we want Ableton to do what Ableton does best, and wait for more companies to pop up and create their unique digital-live-performance suites?

Jed
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by Jed » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:30 am

I've had a great time using Ableton for developing and producing acoustic/electric rock for the last 10 or so years.

I use the session view to develop ideas and the arrangement view to build song structure.

I do hope they further refine the arrangement view with comping and track hiding, but having tried most of the big names I settled on Ableton and have never looked back. I've never felt that Ableton's environment was purely for electronic music production. I use the suite version and its comes packed with very useable acoustic drums and instrument sounds.

Good debate tho :)

Cheers
Jed

Martin Gifford
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by Martin Gifford » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:21 am

Most modern music is boring, IMO. You can hear the creators pulling themselves up by the bootlaces trying to make original sounds and to be cool, but it doesn't work. I reckon the best music these days are basically pop songs, e.g. Radioactive and Counting Stars. Regarding dance music, nothing has been better than Insomnia, which was early 90s, IIRC. That one had energy and transcendence simultaneously.

It is hard to come up with something innovative given that music generally has a 4 beat pattern and millions of punters are churning out songs every day. Probably, we've reached Peak Music (as in Peak Oil), and everything dwindles from here.

TomViolenz
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:14 am

igneous wrote: The workflow of Ableton, with it's clip launching and drum-rack architecture, and extensive MIDI overdub and automation tools, is optimized for this kind of music. But, as I personally am moving towards a more fluid, electro-acoustic kind of music (involving more instruments, musicians, microphones and subtle warped loops and effects), I'm feeling the limitations with Ableton, which seems optimized for additive beat-making and production in particular. Will this live-performance tool, which I've invested a huge amount of time in learning, end up as a tool optimized for the additive beat-music of the 2010's?
What do you feel is missing in Live that stops you from making this sort of music with it?

And if you think that Live 9 will have any relevance beyond a historic curiosity in 50 years time, you haven't followed progress much in the last 20 years.

If there will still be a Live 29 and how relevant that may be then is anyones guess.

TomViolenz
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by TomViolenz » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:16 am

Martin Gifford wrote:Regarding dance music, nothing has been better than Insomnia, which was early 90s, IIRC. That one had energy and transcendence simultaneously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, you were saying....?!

Martin Gifford
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by Martin Gifford » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:10 pm

TomViolenz wrote:
Martin Gifford wrote:Regarding dance music, nothing has been better than Insomnia, which was early 90s, IIRC. That one had energy and transcendence simultaneously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, you were saying....?!
Not sure what you're saying.

When Insomnia came out, it was played in just about every club on the planet every night for a few years. If you passed by in the street and you heard that riff playing, you instantly felt that something big was going on. Love that feeling of impact, bigness, drama, intensity. What song does that now, or since? Not a single one. All downhill from then.

stringtapper
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by stringtapper » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:15 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
Martin Gifford wrote:Regarding dance music, nothing has been better than Insomnia, which was early 90s, IIRC. That one had energy and transcendence simultaneously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, you were saying....?!
Not sure what you're saying.

When Insomnia came out, it was played in just about every club on the planet every night for a few years. If you passed by in the street and you heard that riff playing, you instantly felt that something big was going on. Love that feeling of impact, bigness, drama, intensity. What song does that now, or since? Not a single one. All downhill from then.
I think the point (not his point my mind you, but the point :wink: ) is that what either of you think of that or any other musical entity is and always will be a subjective matter. He's laughing at it, you think it's the best thing since Beethoven.

So who's right?

No one.
Unsound Designer

TomViolenz
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:48 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:
Martin Gifford wrote:Regarding dance music, nothing has been better than Insomnia, which was early 90s, IIRC. That one had energy and transcendence simultaneously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, you were saying....?!
Not sure what you're saying.

When Insomnia came out, it was played in just about every club on the planet every night for a few years. If you passed by in the street and you heard that riff playing, you instantly felt that something big was going on. Love that feeling of impact, bigness, drama, intensity. What song does that now, or since? Not a single one. All downhill from then.
I'm saying you are argumenting from only a passing familiarity of dance music and are making authoritative statements on it nonetheless.

This struck me as exceedingly silly, hence the laughter 8)

Martin Gifford
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by Martin Gifford » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:30 am

I am the authority on energy and transcendence. Music is sometimes (i.e. up to the end of the Insomnia event) a subset of that.

mkell424
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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:36 am

Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by mkell424 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:00 am

As far as current music goes I highly recommend the new New Order album. Glad they are still making great music together even without Peter Hook.

doghouse
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by doghouse » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:57 am

Live is still better suited than other DAWs for live performances interacting with non-electronic performers. Whether someone will come along with a better live performance tool is a good question.

As far as recording, beefing up arrangement view esp. the mixer portion would be helpful.

As far as the music of the future, check back in 15 years 8)

igneous
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:40 am

Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by igneous » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:25 pm

What do you feel is missing in Live that stops you from making this sort of music with it?
1) the real-time connection between the acoustic and the electronic realms. Recording audio into session view is great, but there's no good way to expressively playback live-recorded audio, much less simply overdub on an audio clip. Drum racks and Sampler (arguably the two most powerful tools available in Ableton) both require audio to be prepared ahead of time as well. For those that want to get in the flow with acoustic musicians (therefor getting in the flow with 99% of the genres of humanity), we can't be furiously twiddling knobs or scrolling through menus every time they want to try something different. We need to be able to be much more flexible.

2) more expressive controllers, that allow us to innovate musically in the moment, rather be in the moment with all our button-triggered prepared samples.

Until then, things like session view and Push (1 and 2 it seems) are constantly pushing us in the direction of procedural music.

TomViolenz
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by TomViolenz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:28 pm

igneous wrote:
What do you feel is missing in Live that stops you from making this sort of music with it?
1) the real-time connection between the acoustic and the electronic realms. Recording audio into session view is great, but there's no good way to expressively playback live-recorded audio, much less simply overdub on an audio clip. Drum racks and Sampler (arguably the two most powerful tools available in Ableton) both require audio to be prepared ahead of time as well. For those that want to get in the flow with acoustic musicians (therefor getting in the flow with 99% of the genres of humanity), we can't be furiously twiddling knobs or scrolling through menus every time they want to try something different. We need to be able to be much more flexible.

2) more expressive controllers, that allow us to innovate musically in the moment, rather be in the moment with all our button-triggered prepared samples.

Until then, things like session view and Push (1 and 2 it seems) are constantly pushing us in the direction of procedural music.
Have you tried the Looper?

igneous
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:40 am

Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by igneous » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:48 pm

Have you tried the Looper?
:roll: yes. the traditional looper must disappear (to be revived in 50 years, when it can be retro and cool), because right now it's mind-numbingly boring. If I hear any more performances of someone methodically overdubbing themselves and then putting it in reverse as their backing track to their guitar noodling.....

TomViolenz
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Re: Future of Music/Ableton : innovation vs better beat-making

Post by TomViolenz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:02 pm

roll eyes non-withstanding, I have still no idea what your issue with Live really is. What is it that it is lacking, what would you like to do that it can't do?

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