Pros & cons of playing an instrument and knowing theory

[[jur]]

But in the meantime I 100% agree with the idea that sometimes/for some musicians thinking while playing music/composing can kill your creativity.

But that's precisely why actually learning music theory is a process of internalizing the concepts so that you don't have to think, or at least not to the extent that it can derail the creative process.

As Charlie Parker is often quoted as saying in one form or another:

"Master your instrument, Master the music, and then forget all that shit and just play."

Well, that's true! But, I personally always feel bored after a few weeks of studying music theory. I'd love to know and master it all, and be free to play with style and without thinking. I just can't, I always end up stop thinking and play, sometimes its sounds good, most of the time it doesn't but I still always find other musicians who like this fucked up way of playing. Some of them are great and trained musicians and I feel shameful playing with them... guess what, some of them feel frustrated because they can't play so fucked up, even drunk

[stringtapper]

Well, that's true! But, I personally always feel bored after a few weeks of studying music theory. I'd love to know and master it all, and be free to play with style and without thinking. I just can't, I always end up stop thinking and play…

That's why music theory isn't supposed to be studied at a table with a book and a cup of coffee.

It's supposed to be studied at an instrument, playing through the concepts, getting them in your ear, internalizing it all. Even if your "instrument" is Live's piano roll!

At the end of the day music is an aural art and being able to make fast connections between the brain and the ear is where the rubber meets the road, as they say. It's an exhilarating thing when it starts to come together.

[EasyWorkflow]

The point being was not knowing theory probably has resulted in some of the most iconic songs ever written because people had to rely on their ears without having any formal knowledge of what they were doing. That is a PRO of not learning theory.

But that's just another side to the same fallacy I keep talking about.

The state of not knowing isn't what contributed to those songs being iconic. The artist's musical sense that developed from whatever musical environment they were exposed to did.

Saying that the absence of knowledge of music theory caused a song to be better is untenable, because there's absolutely no way to prove it. A statistician would tell you that you're making the classic mistake of confusing correlation with causation. Just because you can correlate a particular artist's output with the fact that they didn't know music theory doesn't mean that you can prove that their lack of music theory knowledge caused their output to be of greater quality than it otherwise would have been had they known music theory. Absolutely no way to prove that.

So no, I will stand by my sentiment that what you're calling a "con" is a logical fallacy in how you're viewing what music theory's role is and can be in music making.

The truth of the matter is you really do not have a clue why songs became iconic. Nobody does. It could have been due to a complete lack of any music knowledge and accidentally, a person sat on a keyboard by mistake and their butt landed on the 4 keys creating that elusive chord they been searching for. (it would had to be key of c of course because most likely butt landed on white keys ) and created the magic. Who cares anymore. Stop reading into this already and go make music. Do me a favor and post a track you have written. . I would like to hear your producing style. Here is my first and only track ever made using my very limited knowledge of Ableton and relying on my guitar skills which developed from learning theory early in life. https://soundcloud.com/bobbyluvchild/freshsocks If you follow me, you will learn what a person with limited skills in Ableton can produce using creativity when producing. I used ZERO theory writing that track. Or if I did, I didn't think about it. It's the way I enjoy writing. Never said it was the correct way. There is no correct way or workflow. It's whatever you enjoy. But trust me, I am still going to try to learn more about using the software and if I do develop another set of skills in addition to using my MIDI guitar and Push to produce music, I may come up with an iconic song. You may already have written one. But please post something because I am curious to hear your music.

[[jur]]

Well, that's true! But, I personally always feel bored after a few weeks of studying music theory. I'd love to know and master it all, and be free to play with style and without thinking. I just can't, I always end up stop thinking and play…

That's why music theory isn't supposed to be studied at a table with a book and a cup of coffee.

It's supposed to be studied at an instrument, playing through the concepts, getting them in your ear, internalizing it all. Even if your "instrument" is Live's piano roll!

At the end of the day music is an aural art and being able to make fast connections between the brain and the ear is where the rubber meets the road, as they say. It's an exhilarating thing when it starts to come together.

I always have my fingers on a neck or some keys when I study music theory... that's exactly why I soon end up just playing music.

[stringtapper]

I always have my fingers on a neck or some keys when I study music theory... that's exactly why I soon end up just playing music.

But that's my point. "Just playing music" is only separate from music theory in your mind, but not in reality.

This is another thing I've said a few times, but anyone who engages in any musical activity is "using" music theory to some extent, whether they know it or not. It's just that maybe they've internalized concepts aurally and don't know what to call them.

So you can't escape it!

[stringtapper]

The truth of the matter is you really do not have a clue why songs became iconic. Nobody does. It could have been due to a complete lack of any music knowledge and accidentally, a person sat on a keyboard by mistake and their butt landed on the 4 keys creating that elusive chord they been searching for. (it would had to be key of c of course because most likely butt landed on white keys ) and created the magic.

But that still doesn't make any sense. This doesn't really have anything to do with music but rather language and the use of logic. How would "a complete lack of knowledge" lead to an accident with someone's butt and a piano? That would mean that somehow the contents of a person's memory somehow guided their body without their conscious effort to create some coincidence of their body making contact with an inanimate object in a certain way. See how absurd it sounds when you break it down?

Who cares anymore. Stop reading into this already and go make music. Do me a favor and post a track you have written.

Ah, and of course this old chestnut rears its head.

"I started a really involved thread about music theory but now that this guy disagrees with me and can articulate his positions I don't care about the discussion anymore and need to compare my musical dick size with him."

Yeah, not biting. I've seen it all before. You start out with a wall of text but now I'm the one reading into it too much? Riiiiight.

[studiologic]

the more i think about... without the little music theory i know... i would still be writing the same song over and over again... different groove/beat... same chord progression with different instruments/patches... same melody with different instruments/patches... learning music theory may not pay dividends for days, weeks, months... but one day it does all come together... and you will be impressed with the results...

p.s. i got my warning but will not be intimated... just for the record...

[kitekrazy]

There are no cons to learning music.

I second that.

[EasyWorkflow]

The truth of the matter is you really do not have a clue why songs became iconic. Nobody does. It could have been due to a complete lack of any music knowledge and accidentally, a person sat on a keyboard by mistake and their butt landed on the 4 keys creating that elusive chord they been searching for. (it would had to be key of c of course because most likely butt landed on white keys ) and created the magic.

But that still doesn't make any sense. This doesn't really have anything to do with music but rather language and the use of logic. How would "a complete lack of knowledge" lead to an accident with someone's butt and a piano? That would mean that somehow the contents of a person's memory somehow guided their body without their conscious effort to create some coincidence of their body making contact with an inanimate object in a certain way. See how absurd it sounds when you break it down?

Who cares anymore. Stop reading into this already and go make music. Do me a favor and post a track you have written.

Ah, and of course this old chestnut rears its head.

"I started a really involved thread about music theory but now that this guy disagrees with me and can articulate his positions I don't care about the discussion anymore and need to compare my musical dick size with him."

Yeah, not biting. I've seen it all before. You start out with a wall of text but now I'm the one reading into it too much? Riiiiight.

I don't disagree with you anymore because I realize that even though I have a traumatic brain injury, you have the highest IQ on this website and have always been right, will continue to be right , and any thing you post in the future will be right. You were even right when you just said something about you being a musical dick. I kinda skimmed over that part because most people do not want to read that type of immature writing.I would have never have brought that up because that's usually the type of language that average people use when they start to lose it and can no longer have an intelligent conversation. But in your case, you are brilliant so that doesn't apply to you. I was honestly curious about the music you produce because of your philosophical brilliance and wanted to see if your music reflected your Mensa society IQ level. Somebody has to have the highest IQ on this site and it's definitely you. Congrats. And it makes sense because brilliant people typically do not have a sense of humor and not to find the humor and some truth about someone plopping their butt on a keyboard and writing the magical chord, because things like that happen in life, verifies how brilliant you are because you were able to dissect that line and using your intellect explain to everyone how that couldn't possibly have happened or make sense. And please never again call yourself a musical dick because you aren't. You are a brilliant musician and just not ready to share your brilliance with the world. I apologize if you took offense of a complete beginner asking a seasoned pro to hear one of your tracks. I didn't realize that is not proper etiquette. I know you are going to respond but there is no need to because whatever you say is right. You can belittle me if that makes you feel better and say whatever you want and I am not even going to respond. That's a promise and I am man of my word.

[stringtapper]

^ Off topic.

[mmorgan]

As Charlie Parker is often quoted as saying in one form or another:

"Master your instrument, Master the music, and then forget all that shit and just play."

^^^ this is the quote I've tried to run my musical aspirations through as much as possible. I always try to keep it in mind.

[Machinesworking]

I always have my fingers on a neck or some keys when I study music theory... that's exactly why I soon end up just playing music.

But that's my point. "Just playing music" is only separate from music theory in your mind, but not in reality.

This is another thing I've said a few times, but anyone who engages in any musical activity is "using" music theory to some extent, whether they know it or not. It's just that maybe they've internalized concepts aurally and don't know what to call them.

So you can't escape it!

Werd!

I started off really interested in early industrial, Cage etc. the use of random chance. I didn't study traditional music theory because I wasn't needing it at the time, but what I was doing was still music theory.

At this point I feel like I jumped off the deep end for too long, so getting back to the basics has been rough. I will say this though. Because of what I wanted to achieve I end up using odd scales all the time, compared to my very prolific friend who almost 100% stays in minor keys. He went to college for music, and to a degree what it gave him is a golden ear, all his tracks sound really good, but not a sense of adventure, he doesn't stray too much. Anecdotal I know, but there is I think a tendency for people to stick with what is known when they take in theory, in the sense that they become too conscious that they're breaking a 'rule' instead of "this sounds good".

A friend of mine is an amazing drummer, he turned down playing for Nirvana, so I guess he's partially responsible for Dave Grohl. Anyway he picks up a guitar and plays it like a percussion instrument, and I'm a bit jealous of his total lack of care about melody, it's something that with or without traditional theory gets lost once you become familiar with an instrument.

I don't think for a second though that electronic music done in Live etc. is helped by a lack of theory, there're thousands of tracks out there that all sound the same, and a little knowledge would help.

[login]

I apreciate rock and pop a lot. But to me the music that really gets in to my bones and soul is still "classical": Bethoven, Chopin, Bach and more modern stuff like Stravinsky and Rachmaninoff.

Those guys knew a shit ton of music and were also quite good at their instruments, and to me in many ways their music is still unsurpased in the emotional content. Stravinsky specially is a great example of someone who knowing a lot deconstructed it all and made something radical. Ligeti too, but he doesn't tend to make beautifull/emotional stuff that appeals to me, but I do find his music interesting (and some of his piano pieces are pure virtuosism).

I love techno too, I am sucker for new sounds and great grooves, I s also find my self gravitating towards artists with "musical" content such as Max Cooper, DOminik Eulberg, James Holden, etc.

Finally one of my great inspirations right now is Nils Frahm, that guy is classical trained obviously, still his music sends shivers down my spine. And the way he is mixing piano with synths and effects it's great.

Also Max Richter, his last work "Vivaldi recompossed" is fucking amazing, as all his previous work.

So at least for me it's pretty clear that knowing theory in no way is an obstacle and it appers that in fact knowing a shit ton of theory makes music great, if you like that aesthetic discourse. I just love beatifull music with technical prowess.

I can totally understand people who don't like the western tradition of tonal music, but you can deny that within it's boundaries great stuff has been and is still created.

[beats me]

Here's a creative iOS app that came out this month that does the theory heavy lifting for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWvSqxVVnAI

Pick a key and make a pattern in the piano roll. It has 4 playheads that go over the same pattern. For each playhead you can set it to play forward, backward, or back and forth. For each playhead you can also set the synced speed it plays, start point, invert it, and adjust the octave and pitch. Great results without having to really think about the theory behind it.

Here's one that's probably a little more stringtapper's taste

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvEJFjDykuE

[TomViolenz]

DOminik Eulberg

Love his stuff

Die Invasion der Taschenkrebse is my favorite track of all times.