My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Division Monarchy
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My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by Division Monarchy » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:51 am

While I appreciate the new update, I just got to say one thing, please stop with the M4L devices as new features. M4L is buggy, slow, CPU heavy, and over rated. Please, how about taking some of its useful components like LFO and other plugins and make them native?

M4L is nowhere near as stable or efficient as Live, and I feel like as a user of Live I am being pushed in the direction of a piece of software that I find to be buggy and not user, or system friendly.

I don't care that M4L provides this great, open source programming environment, because I get no use out of it with its overall clunkiness. I do care to see Ableton put more into their own native plugins again and to stop leaning on M4L development.

ShelLuser
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:46 am

Being an avid M4l user I'll easily admit that I'm probably slightly biased. But having said that there are still a few things I don't really recognize in your comment.
Division Monarchy wrote:M4L is buggy, slow, CPU heavy, and over rated. Please, how about taking some of its useful components like LFO and other plugins and make them native?
Let's start with buggy... I've heard that comment a few times before and I'd like to know where that comes from, can you give us some examples?

I'll be the first to admit that there are plenty of 3rd party devices out there which sometimes aren't very stable or which could cause issues. But is that something to blame on M4l or on the author of said patches? I'd also like to share that in my experience (though I don't heavily use 3rd party stuff) these issues have been much worse when M4l just started. With Max 7 things have been improving a lot.

Slow & CUP heavy. This has most certainly been an issue but even here things have been improving IMO.

I use a pretty slow PC in the office, even 32bit. If I start messing with the new Poli M4l synth my CPU load can sometimes shoot up to 35 - 37%, especially when heavily using chords and such. If I then load the Operator Brassinski instrument rack preset and start playing I notice peaks up to 22 - 25%.

Poli is definitely heavier on resources but it's not as if its taxing things double or triple.

Which is another thing: some devices are much heavier than others. The Arp device for example provides much more features than Live's Arpeggiator yet isn't very demanding at all. It's not as if all M4l devices are resource hogs per definition. And well, so far I have yet to see M4l crash on me, same goes for some of the other M4l devices...

Do note that I'm not saying that you don't make a valid point here at all. It is a fact that having only Live loaded or Live + Max will require more resources (memory usage alone comes to mind). But I also think that there is a difference between a freely available update and a paid upgrade to a new version. With the latter I also wouldn't care too much about M4l devices (for different reasons though) and wouldn't like having to pay for them. But with upgrades such as these things are a bit different IMO.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

pencilrocket
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by pencilrocket » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:23 am

If it were as stable as native devices m4l would have called native devices
What if reason rack extension were buggier than VST? :lol:
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Division Monarchy
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by Division Monarchy » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:58 am

Bottom line for me is I would never trust it to use in a live setting and I feel uninspired to use it in the studio.

I want Ableton to veer away from releasing stuff on this platform and keep things native. Paid or free upgrades being a moot point, plugins like LFO, Convolution Reverb should exist natively in Live at this point.

If M4L works that great for you, then that is fine. Personally, I find it to be the most unstable software I ever owned and I really don't like Ableton using it as a crutch.

Besides, you can't run M4L in Rewire. They really did not do a good job with the integration.

störgeräusche
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by störgeräusche » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:21 am

i have several M4L devices in my live set and i never had any problems on stage... 20+ gigs and never one crash.
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deva
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by deva » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:17 am

Division Monarchy wrote:Bottom line for me is I would never trust it to use in a live setting and I feel uninspired to use it in the studio.

I want Ableton to veer away from releasing stuff on this platform and keep things native. Paid or free upgrades being a moot point, plugins like LFO, Convolution Reverb should exist natively in Live at this point.

If M4L works that great for you, then that is fine. Personally, I find it to be the most unstable software I ever owned and I really don't like Ableton using it as a crutch.

Besides, you can't run M4L in Rewire. They really did not do a good job with the integration.
You can ask for what you want... but Ableton is committed to M4L. And they will continue to make integration better, make it more stable, and efficient. Ableton isn't using it as a crutch, they are creating an environment that lets users create the tools the want. That is their vision.

chapelier fou
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by chapelier fou » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:24 am

M4L crashes a lot when editing.
But i just made one year of tour without any problem with 2 or 3 custom devices in my sets.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

ShelLuser
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:28 am

Division Monarchy wrote:Bottom line for me is I would never trust it to use in a live setting and I feel uninspired to use it in the studio.
Fair enough.

I can most certainly respect your opinion and to some extend can even agree with it. I mean: when it comes to new releases then I too think that generally speaking us customers will have more benefit with native Live devices than M4l devices. Some of the reasons I mentioned above.

Its just that I can't find myself in your findings.

One thing though; apologies up front because I am playing the devils advocate here a little bit... ;)
Division Monarchy wrote:Besides, you can't run M4L in Rewire. They really did not do a good job with the integration.
Actually you can, but I'll be the first to admit that it's not as easy as simply pointing & clicking.

Max 7 supports the amxd~ device which allows M4l patches to be loaded into Max/MSP. And you can use Max 7 (runtime) as a rewire slave for Live. So all you'd have to do is build a Max patch within M4l which grabs incoming midi, sends it into amxd~ (with a loaded patch) and sends audio out.

Start Live, start the Max runtime, load your patch and make the required routings (using External Instrument).

Once again: I'm convinced that this is likely pretty useless for performances and such, but... it is doable ;)
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

kleine
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by kleine » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:51 am

@Division Monarchy

Generally: You don't have to use M4L if you don't like it - therefore we have a Live standard edition.
If M4L would not exist, Live would look pretty much the same as of now (of course minus M4L). For many users and artists, M4L is a godsend and they build their whole musical universe around it/with it.
I'm working hard on making 'clunkiness' go away, so at some point will not be able to tell the difference anymore between C++ code and Max code.. (if there would be no edit button that is...).

Best,
C

Michael Hatsis
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by Michael Hatsis » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:55 am

kleine wrote:
If M4L would not exist, Live would look pretty much the same as of now (of course minus M4L). For many users and artists, M4L is a godsend and they build their whole musical universe around it/with it.


Best,
C
i dont know if that is totally true. if there was no such thing as mfl we might have a native LFO and other modulation decives by this point. instead we have an mfl device- that if i use it, there is no guarantee that if and when i open up that set say 6-12 months from now that everything will still be mapped and the controls will be how i left them. One thing i refuse to do is to lose work, and i have been stung so many times w mfl. so for me mfl is unusable.
also, lots of resources go into developing and updating mfl. resources that could be spent on vanilla Live

kleine
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by kleine » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:00 am

I guess you have to trust me on that one :wink:
Of course, loosing work is not acceptable, so it's with the LFO and other devices as with any other devices: if you
find an issue, let us know about it and we'll fix it.

Best,
Christian

Michael Hatsis
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by Michael Hatsis » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:07 am

kleine wrote:I guess you have to trust me on that one :wink:
Of course, loosing work is not acceptable, so it's with the LFO and other devices as with any other devices: if you
find an issue, let us know about it and we'll fix it.

Best,
Christian

dunno,
I find it hard to believe that once we got session automation - and if there was no mfl, that there wouldn't be any native modulation devices. especially now w bitwig

kirky_roger
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by kirky_roger » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:46 am

kleine wrote:@Division Monarchy
I'm working hard on making 'clunkiness' go away, so at some point will not be able to tell the difference anymore between C++ code and Max code.. (if there would be no edit button that is...).
I guess for me it's that. The "clunkiness" at the moment just doesn't give you a safe feeling using it live. And then from time to time it happens that the Convolution Reverb just doesn't load the impulse Response you saved the live-set with and now you're sitting on a Live Set with 10+ Convolution Reverbs in it, and all of them are back to their defautl setting. That sucks so bad, that it overshadows all (and there are a lot of them) positive aspects of M4L. I can see the potential of M4L and I'm looking forward to new improvements in stability and so on, but I also hope that Ableton doesn't rely sole on M4L to develop some basic Audio Effects (such as LFO's) but provides them in a native format. If at some point we won't be able to tell the difference between C++ code and Max, I change my views.

TomViolenz
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:01 am

kleine wrote:I guess you have to trust me on that one :wink:
Of course, loosing work is not acceptable, so it's with the LFO and other devices as with any other devices: if you
find an issue, let us know about it and we'll fix it.

Best,
Christian
Easy: The LFO assigned parameter can not be controlled any more via other means

I'm not holding my breath till you solve that ;-)

Other than that a huge +10000000 for the OP

TomViolenz
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Re: My Complaint With the Direction of Live.

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:05 am

Michael Hatsis wrote:
kleine wrote:I guess you have to trust me on that one :wink:
Of course, loosing work is not acceptable, so it's with the LFO and other devices as with any other devices: if you
find an issue, let us know about it and we'll fix it.

Best,
Christian

dunno,
I find it hard to believe that once we got session automation - and if there was no mfl, that there wouldn't be any native modulation devices. especially now w bitwig
Especially considering that the internal modulation options in Bitwig are far beyond anything I have seen cooked up in M4L!
The M4L LFO and Envelope Follower wouldn't even cut it if they were native devices! :x

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