Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
lovelight
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by lovelight » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:04 am

ive got the exactly same setup on 2 pc.s one with windows 10 and win 7. The one with win 10, live cant handle cpu hungry vst,s at all without crackle the sound ,drop outs of audio and a cpu bananas. It has been like that since 9.5 ( im running the latest beta 9.6b2 on both ) on win 7 no problem at all. Before the update, with live 9.2 no problem on both pc,s

Im wondering if it is a Windows 10 problem ...


https://www.facebook.com/AbletonPushVstRacks/


win 10, 64 bit, 16 gb ram, intel 8xcore i7-4790 cpu 3.60zh, Live suite 9, propellerhead balance
http://lovelight.biz/

Tarekith
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by Tarekith » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:28 am

ze2be wrote:
Tarekith wrote:There's a ton of people running 9.5 with no issues too, don't let one post on a forum dissuade from you from what might otherwise work fine.
Thanks Eric, I do listen to people like you, everyone should. However this is my main job so it aint a good idea unless it really is stable..
I hear you man, better safe than sorry in that case.

ze2be
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by ze2be » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:43 pm

lovelight wrote:ive got the exactly same setup on 2 pc.s one with windows 10 and win 7. The one with win 10, live cant handle cpu hungry vst,s at all without crackle the sound ,drop outs of audio and a cpu bananas. It has been like that since 9.5 ( im running the latest beta 9.6b2 on both ) on win 7 no problem at all. Before the update, with live 9.2 no problem on both pc,s

Im wondering if it is a Windows 10 problem ...


https://www.facebook.com/AbletonPushVstRacks/


win 10, 64 bit, 16 gb ram, intel 8xcore i7-4790 cpu 3.60zh, Live suite 9, propellerhead balance
http://lovelight.biz/
Thanks for sharing that. Im probably going to stick with 7 for another year before going all 10, because stability is number one for me. "If it aint broke dont fix" is a rule I try to follow. The bling would be nice at some point but I dont really need it now, especially if there is even the slightest risk involved. 7 have been rock solid for me, just like XP was. I was hoping 10 would turn out solid too as it seem to be every second major release that are great.

Guillermo Barrancos
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by Guillermo Barrancos » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:54 pm

ze2be wrote:
lovelight wrote:ive got the exactly same setup on 2 pc.s one with windows 10 and win 7. The one with win 10, live cant handle cpu hungry vst,s at all without crackle the sound ,drop outs of audio and a cpu bananas. It has been like that since 9.5 ( im running the latest beta 9.6b2 on both ) on win 7 no problem at all. Before the update, with live 9.2 no problem on both pc,s

Im wondering if it is a Windows 10 problem ...


https://www.facebook.com/AbletonPushVstRacks/


win 10, 64 bit, 16 gb ram, intel 8xcore i7-4790 cpu 3.60zh, Live suite 9, propellerhead balance
http://lovelight.biz/
Thanks for sharing that. Im probably going to stick with 7 for another year before going all 10, because stability is number one for me. "If it aint broke dont fix" is a rule I try to follow. The bling would be nice at some point but I dont really need it now, especially if there is even the slightest risk involved. 7 have been rock solid for me, just like XP was. I was hoping 10 would turn out solid too as it seem to be every second major release that are great.
Windows 10 as OS is rock solid.

It's the software and hardware vendors that are slacking as usual.

It's the same problems With OSX 10.11 at the moment.

ze2be
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by ze2be » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:43 pm

Guillermo Barrancos wrote:Windows 10 as OS is rock solid.

It's the software and hardware vendors that are slacking as usual.

It's the same problems With OSX 10.11 at the moment.
Cool, thanks! And yeah, thats what I meant to say, I just put in fewer words. :)

Im looking forward to when the Win10 audio production platform is running properly. There are improvements in the midi handling that vendors can dig into, and maybe audio too, dont remember exactly the improvements. There is a Youtube video about it from the man in charge. It was nice to see he is an audio geek just like us. If I find it again I will add it in this post here.

Handling files with the help of Total Commander (file browser and backup system) im doing pretty good with Win7, and Ableton has tightened up some of their latency issues lately, so its pretty good as is. However I always export with lowest possible sample buffer size anyway, and this tightens up the mixes a lot, especially when using lots of automation and lots of sends in big projects. (Automation was recently latency improved, but not sends if I recall corectly, and this is fixed with exporting at lower sample buffer size of 64 or 128max) Though its great to now have less latency while working. Good for live shows aswell. Looking forward to working with Live 9.5/9.6 in the studio with the new Cytomic filters and new improved audio waveforms. I will wait until the spring probably. Going on a few weeks tour before that.

When all the hardware and software vendors im using are rock solid on win10 too, I will do the switch. In the mean time the love is strong with the 9.2.3 on win7 setup. :)

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:01 pm

ze2be wrote:However I always export with lowest possible sample buffer size anyway, and this tightens up the mixes a lot, especially when using lots of automation and lots of sends in big projects. (Automation was recently latency improved, but not sends if I recall corectly, and this is fixed with exporting at lower sample buffer size of 64 or 128max) )
That's funny as I've seen no difference whatsoever when exporting. Files will be identical no matter buffer rate settings. Are you perhaps exporting real time audio with external audio sources? Or is this a Windows thing?
Make some music!

ze2be
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by ze2be » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:38 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
ze2be wrote:However I always export with lowest possible sample buffer size anyway, and this tightens up the mixes a lot, especially when using lots of automation and lots of sends in big projects. (Automation was recently latency improved, but not sends if I recall corectly, and this is fixed with exporting at lower sample buffer size of 64 or 128max) )
That's funny as I've seen no difference whatsoever when exporting. Files will be identical no matter buffer rate settings. Are you perhaps exporting real time audio with external audio sources? Or is this a Windows thing?
It depends completely on the plugs you are using. ;) Funny is not the word I would use though, ahem. With all due respect me thinks youve been around here enough to know this. Read up, or just take my words for it. As far as I know im not known for making up stuf. :P Like Tarekith I do tests for my self to be sure what really is going on. Some reverbs have such high latency that when lets say used on a snare with a very short room it turns into an echo. Im talking 50ms or more at 1024 samples, and on plugs like these its audible all the way down to 256. 128 removed it almost completely on the export. 100ms is about the lenght of a 16th note in 140bpm, as an example. Its the lenght of my kick drums usually. Imagine you have 8 sends going on (I do), and lots of automation, which previously up until very recent time was not latency compensated. For high density compositions its night and day difference, really. And im not exagerating! When there is diffeent latencies going on for every track it really starts mudding things up. (I will upload an example on this in a different thread but not before the track is released later this year!) This is what the negative critics call the "Ableton sound", but hey there is a way to bypass it! You export with the highest SAMPLE BUFFER SIZE that your computer can handle. End of story. Usually 128 on older machines and 64 on newer. On smaller less dense compositions the latency mudd effect on the mix is much smaler, obviously, but you will still gain a little bit improvements in timing. Just because its less likely to happen to your setup doesnt mean it doesnt happen to others that have different setups. It highly depends on what plugs you are using and how you are using Live. For me it varies from project to project, some have much less issues then others.

Mods: sorry for going a little of topic, I will keep it inside from now on. Just had to reply on this.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:48 pm

ze2be wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
ze2be wrote:However I always export with lowest possible sample buffer size anyway, and this tightens up the mixes a lot, especially when using lots of automation and lots of sends in big projects. (Automation was recently latency improved, but not sends if I recall corectly, and this is fixed with exporting at lower sample buffer size of 64 or 128max) )
That's funny as I've seen no difference whatsoever when exporting. Files will be identical no matter buffer rate settings. Are you perhaps exporting real time audio with external audio sources? Or is this a Windows thing?
It depends completely on the plugs you are using. ;) Funny is not the word I would use though, ahem. With all due respect me thinks youve been around here enough to know this. Read up, or just take my words for it. As far as I know im not known for making up stuf. :P Like Tarekith I do tests for my self to be sure what really is going on. Some reverbs have such high latency that when lets say used on a snare with a very short room it turns into an echo. Im talking 50ms or more at 1024 samples, and on plugs like these its audible all the way down to 256. 128 removed it almost completely on the export. 100ms is about the lenght of a 16th note in 140bpm, as an example. Its the lenght of my kick drums usually. Imagine you have 8 sends going on (I do), and lots of automation, which previously up until very recent time was not latency compensated. For high density compositions its night and day difference, really. And im not exagerating! When there is diffeent latencies going on for every track it really starts mudding things up. (I will upload an example on this in a different thread but not before the track is released later this year!) This is what the negative critics call the "Ableton sound", but hey there is a way to bypass it! You export with the highest SAMPLE BUFFER SIZE that your computer can handle. End of story. Usually 128 on older machines and 64 on newer. On smaller less dense compositions the latency mudd effect on the mix is much smaler, obviously, but you will still gain a little bit improvements in timing. Just because its less likely to happen to your setup doesnt mean it doesnt happen to others that have different setups. It highly depends on what plugs you are using and how you are using Live. For me it varies from project to project, some have much less issues then others.

Mods: sorry for going a little of topic, I will keep it inside from now on. Just had to reply on this.
Very interesting, I must do some tests on this on the plug-ins I use. After all exports are the final stage before mastering. I didn't mean to imply your interpretation on this was non-factual. My apologies if that was how I came across. I was just surprised of your results and started thinking why this could be, that's all. Maybe I could have used another word if I was more skilled in English. A direct translation from my language would be "strange" or "peculiar", which are synonyms to "funny". Nuances sometimes are lost in translations and I'm sorry about that

Actually I'm not sure if this off-topic as much of the problems people have been having for quite some time, since Live 9 was released anyway, have been related to audio artefacts of different types. Instability and crashes are only symptoms. The underlying causes could be the same or be related.
Make some music!

ze2be
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by ze2be » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:23 pm

In english "thats funny" is somewhat equal to say "thats ridiculous". :P not as strong though, but almost, hehe. But no worries, and english is neither my native language. :)

UnderwaterSunlight
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by UnderwaterSunlight » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:01 pm

Today I updated Live to 9.6 official (non-beta) release.

Behold, my 2 most telling test sets both just run without crashing. These are quite involved projects which predictably crashed Live 9.5. Can't say more than that so far as I haven't deeply tested everything yet.

Also, I am impressed that the benchmark set - which is dating back to around Live 8's time - runs slightly faster. Instead of 11-12% load with older Live 9 versions I now get 10% with L 9.6.

I will go forth and say: Well done Abes, this 9.6 seems promising.

Looking forward to a more usable Simpler, too.
Mac Pro 6,1 (Late 2013), 64 GB RAM, 256 GB PCIE SSD, 1TB data/projects SSD, MacOS 10.14 Mojave, Ableton 10 Standard, Komplete 7, Waves Silver, Steinberg UR22 mkII

lunch
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by lunch » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:52 pm

ableton devs decided to close my bug without fixing it.

fuck you ableton. fuck you.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:57 am

lunch wrote:ableton devs decided to close my bug without fixing it.
Because…?

You can just reopen it anyway with new information. Do you have a separate discussion for your issue here in the forums or at centercode?

I have a strange, rarely but recurring bug that makes the GUI unresponsive. I can't recreate it by will myself. It comes once every three months or so, only in certain projects. I can get around it by opening a second window for a while, but some GUI elements will remain unresponsive until I restart. Push commands work.

Ableton doesn't do much there either. Possibly because it's hard to recreate and few others (?) have the same issue.
Make some music!

lunch
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by lunch » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:10 pm

Stromkraft wrote: Because…?
'difficult to reproduce', although it happens 100% of the time on my machine. i offered to install remote debugging tools, but i am afraid that they have lost sight of the importance of stability in their software.

jbone1313
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by jbone1313 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:29 pm

I originally thought my problem was fixed by uninstalling Overbridge, but I was wrong. Basically, I cannot use Max For Live on my Win 10 machine without Live hanging. Happens every time. I had a big long support case open with Ableton, sent them crash dumps, etc. I need to follow back up with them to let them know uninstalling Overbridge was not the solution after all. Basically, I am abandoning Max For Live.

@lunch - Are you using an RME sound card by chance?

My specs: Live 9.6, RME UFX, Win 10, 32GB RAM, Asus x79-Deluxe MB.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9.5 crashes/issues

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:43 pm

lunch wrote:
Stromkraft wrote: Because…?
'difficult to reproduce', although it happens 100% of the time on my machine. i offered to install remote debugging tools, but i am afraid that they have lost sight of the importance of stability in their software.
This is an indication then that Ableton couldn't make it happen on their machines, right? So that would mean there's some kind of interplay between processes on your machine or something that is unique to it.

What you need to do IMHO, is to accept the fact they couldn't reproduce this at this point and try and eliminate the issue on your machine yourself.

Do you have an external disk you can boot from temporarily or another machine you can try with? What I suggest you do is try it yourself on another machine with the plug-ins and packs you need to make clear for yourself the issue only happens on your machine. If you don't have access to another machine, maybe share the project in question with someone. That's a good first step.

If it doesn't happen on the other machine, you can try and make a new user on your machine, log in there, and see if the problem happens also for this user on your hardware. It's a good idea to disconnect all external hardware when you're trying this as that could be part of your issues.

If it does, you can also boot from the other system disk and try the same thing there. If the problem remains it could be your current system or Live needs an overhaul or re-installation.

A re-installation of Live and possibly the whole OS unfortunately an aspect that is largely unavoidable for certain situations, if for nothing else it's typically faster — though no guarantee — than finding what the actual cause is.
I've had to reinstall twice in the last three years and I just made a clean re-installation of everything, not the packs actually that I just copied, when I updated to OS X 10.11 El Capitan. This is just how computing works, still. That it should work anyway just doesn't cut it when it doesn't.

Of course, as this is a huge undertaking usually it's good to have exhausted the alternatives.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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