Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

Bring Back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality please!

YES: Having every clip the exact same color in a track makes it very difficult to tell different musical ideas apart, especially on-stage. Give users the OPTION of turning this on or off please.
86
83%
NO: Keep this new functionality in 9.5 and do not give users a choice in changing it
18
17%
 
Total votes: 104

tolgraven
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by tolgraven » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:33 pm

This change is utterly bizarre. Whatever anyone's opinion of the previous functionality it did nurture a workflow that is now completely broken. Too absurd.

soundsliketree
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by soundsliketree » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:17 pm

I have received the following response to my letter to Ableton support (quoted below). I haven't responded yet to their response.

Hey there Eric ,

Thank you for reaching out to Ableton Support, and for your well worded response to recent changes in the Live software.

At the end of the day the user is the most important component of the Live software in regards to development and the end goal of audio production.

You are certainly a long time member of the Ableton tribe, and we do appreciate your input and the need for a discussion when it comes to major changes in the functionality of Live.

There will be times, however, where changes will be implemented that don't leave the entire user base satisfied, this is a reality of development and progress. It seems that you are well aware of this fact, but we also now that our team isn't capable of synthesizing the thoughts and workflows of our vast user-base whose input and daily use is the backbone of the our software.

Simply put it is a give and take, with no decisions being made hastily, and user experience research as a foundation of any major change in Live.

Your words have been noted and this is a point I will bring up to other members of the Live team. Change should be tested and not simply thrown at our users, and I will pass this on.

In the mean time, although i know this doesn't effect your work flow largely, a user has created a Max for Live device to regain the old functionality:

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... cclipcolor

I hope this helps, and please don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions!

All the best,
Matt

Ableton Support


(I have not had the chance to experiment with the M4L patch referred to, but my reading of the the functionality of that patch is that the color is changed each time a clip is fired on a record enabled track... which is quite different from Live's pre-9.5 behavior and thus does not "regain the old functionality." I'm interested in users' experiences with this patch.)

soundsliketree wrote:(I have sent this as an email to support@ableton.com. If anyone has any other suggestions - please PM me and let me know.)

Dear Ableton development community,
I've been using Ableton Live as my primary studio production and live performance tool from the very beginning: Version 1.  I remember the days before we had MIDI.  I've had various complaints about the software over the years, but mostly I've just loved using Live.  I think it is a fantastic, ground-breaking piece of software, and I look forward to many happy years to come.

However, I find myself deeply troubled by the change you've made to the clip coloring options.  It's not because I don't like the new behavior; it's not useful for me at the moment, but I can imagine finding ways that it will be.  Rather, I'm disturbed by the fact that you *removed* a feature that I and many others have integrated into our workflow - the ability to have each new clip be assigned a new color.  

It's not a question of whether the current or previous situation is better - because it's not an either/or choice.  It's a matter of principle: I believe very strongly that Ableton should not remove features when upgrading the software whenever possible.  In this case, it seems obvious that you could have added the current behavior as a new option - extending existing functionality - rather than removing one functionality when adding another.  There's ample room on the preferences panel, after all.  And, there have been several excellent suggestions from users commenting on the poll thread of ways to implement the current new behavior while keeping the old one (in addition to further color controls that would also be straightforward to implement if you really want to improve the clip coloring functionality).

As I try to understand the motivations behind this change, it occurs to me that either ignorance or arrogance (or both) could be responsible for the way it was implemented: 

Ignorance: Perhaps you not aware of the vast scope of the use cases of the software.  You've made such an open ended creative tool, and this is undoubtably one of the great things about Live.  You may need to do more outreach and learn more about incredible variety of ways people are using the software.  Don't make changes that would seriously harm workflows that have been developed for years around existing features.  This will alienate and anger the core of your most long-time, faithful users.

Arrogance: Or perhaps you do know how folks are using Live in such a myriad of ways, but you've choosen not to care for one reason or another - be it a business model decision, or a desire to shape development in a particular direction regardless of whether it hurts some users.  I think it's fair to shape development by your choices of what new features to add, but surely you can attempt do this without removing features.  In this case, had you attempted this, it seems pretty clear that you could have done it easily and gracefully, without impacting performance or the simplicity of the user interface.

Some of us may remember various times in Live's growth history when features were removed, and the community demanded they be reinstated.  This is another one of these cases, and I hope you'll listen.  

However, even deeper than this particular case is the principle behind upgrading and adding features.  My confidence in the future of this software has been shaken, knowing that with any future update a feature I've relied on for my own use cases could simply be removed.  I think you've made a mistake here, and I request that you correct it in the next update by working out a way to give us both the new and old options.  Furthermore, I'd also like to request that you offer a pledge to your user community that you will do your best to retain all legacy functionality as you continue to develop the software.  

Thanks for reading and considering these suggestions.
Warmly,
eO

stringtapper
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by stringtapper » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:33 pm

soundsliketree wrote:…it occurs to me that either ignorance or arrogance (or both) could be responsible for the way it was implemented…
soundsliketree wrote:Warmly
:lol:
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by soundsliketree » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:46 pm

I actually do feel warmly towards the Ableton developers. I think the software is fantastic, and I appreciate their responsiveness. And... I think they've made a significant mistake here - both with the specific change as well as the overall principle of needlessly removing a feature. Call it tough love.
stringtapper wrote:
soundsliketree wrote:…it occurs to me that either ignorance or arrogance (or both) could be responsible for the way it was implemented…
soundsliketree wrote:Warmly
:lol:

BoddAH
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by BoddAH » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:52 pm

soundsliketree wrote:I actually do feel warmly towards the Ableton developers. I think the software is fantastic, and I appreciate their responsiveness. And... I think they've made a significant mistake here - both with the specific change as well as the overall principle of needlessly removing a feature. Call it tough love.
stringtapper wrote:
soundsliketree wrote:…it occurs to me that either ignorance or arrogance (or both) could be responsible for the way it was implemented…
soundsliketree wrote:Warmly
:lol:

I think tough love and doing what Ableton thinks is right and not just what the community wants is what makes them so great as a company. Nobody could have even dreamed of something like Push a few years back let alone request it yet they did it anyway.

And in the case of features and workflow, Ableton have always done things trying to keep Live streamlined and straightforward, even if it meant removing some features. It is, after all, a software designed for creative performance and live use from the very beginning and you can't just spend years tacking on new features hoping for the best. It would end up a bloated mess.

I always try to keep this in mind. Never lose the big picture and don't expect Live to evolve just like any other DAW. Legacy bullshit and old features might be okay in other DAWs but in the case of Live they can ruin the very thing that makes the software so great.

That being said I can understand this particular request and an option in the Preferences probably wouldn't hurt anybody. :)

login
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by login » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:01 pm

Just to chime a different perspective: I never liked random colors for clips, it left the session unorganized to me. I always colored clips in very similar tones (the sahed option could be great), and my main way to organize them is still naming them.

soundsliketree
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by soundsliketree » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:10 pm

I think tough love and doing what Ableton thinks is right and not just what the community wants is what makes them so great as a company. Nobody could have even dreamed of something like Push a few years back let alone request it yet they did it anyway.

And in the case of features and workflow, Ableton have always done things trying to keep Live streamlined and straightforward, even if it meant removing some features. It is, after all, a software designed for creative performance and live use from the very beginning and you can't just spend years tacking on new features hoping for the best. It would end up a bloated mess.

I always try to keep this in mind. Never lose the big picture and don't expect Live to evolve just like any other DAW. Legacy bullshit and old features might be okay in other DAWs but in the case of Live they can ruin the very thing that makes the software so great.

That being said I can understand this particular request and an option in the Preferences probably wouldn't hurt anybody. :)
I agree with you.
And in this case, Ableton had a perfect opportunity to improve the software by adding a feature without impacting simplicity or performance. Given that this has significantly impacted the workflows of a lot of users in a negative way, I think they made a mistake and my hope is that if we keep the pressure on they will correct it with the next update.

soundsliketree
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by soundsliketree » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:26 pm

soundsliketree wrote:I have received the following response to my letter to Ableton support (quoted below). I haven't responded yet to their response.

Hey there Eric ,

Thank you for reaching out to Ableton Support, and for your well worded response to recent changes in the Live software.

At the end of the day the user is the most important component of the Live software in regards to development and the end goal of audio production.

You are certainly a long time member of the Ableton tribe, and we do appreciate your input and the need for a discussion when it comes to major changes in the functionality of Live.

There will be times, however, where changes will be implemented that don't leave the entire user base satisfied, this is a reality of development and progress. It seems that you are well aware of this fact, but we also now that our team isn't capable of synthesizing the thoughts and workflows of our vast user-base whose input and daily use is the backbone of the our software.

Simply put it is a give and take, with no decisions being made hastily, and user experience research as a foundation of any major change in Live.

Your words have been noted and this is a point I will bring up to other members of the Live team. Change should be tested and not simply thrown at our users, and I will pass this on.

In the mean time, although i know this doesn't effect your work flow largely, a user has created a Max for Live device to regain the old functionality:

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... cclipcolor

I hope this helps, and please don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions!

All the best,
Matt

Ableton Support


(I have not had the chance to experiment with the M4L patch referred to, but my reading of the the functionality of that patch is that the color is changed each time a clip is fired on a record enabled track... which is quite different from Live's pre-9.5 behavior and thus does not "regain the old functionality." I'm interested in users' experiences with this patch.)

I responded to Matt's reply with:

Thanks for the quick response, Matt. I appreciate you communicating my thoughts to the rest of the Live team.
However, I feel there is an important distinction that you did not acknowledge in your response. I do understand that almost all changes have mixed responses from the user community, but this is something different. It is quite rare that Ableton removes a feature from Live. In this case I (and many others on the forum) simply can't fathom why you didn't simply add the new behavior as an additional option - given how it clearly would not have impacted performance or the simplicity of the user interface.

The underlying principle I'm standing for here is that users should be able to develop workflows that can persist through future versions of the software when at all possible.

Is this principle part of Ableton's development strategy for Live?

Thank you for your time and attention.
eO

stringtapper
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by stringtapper » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:28 pm

soundsliketree wrote:Call it an excuse to be rude.
Ok, that's a fair point.
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soundsliketree
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by soundsliketree » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:54 pm

stringtapper wrote:
soundsliketree wrote:Call it an excuse to be rude.
Ok, that's a fair point.
I didn't write that. You're trolling.

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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by soundsliketree » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:55 pm

Ableton's response:

Hi eO,

Thank you for writing back.

What you mention is a key part of our philosophy. In a field full of many DAW's we realize that the foundation of Live is based on a user base who have decided to grow along with the software.

If you look at the UI of our software between 2001 and 2015 you can tell a lot about our dedication to certain workflows and features :).

You do bring up a good point, and maybe there is a future possibility of this behavior being an options.txt.

Thanks again for your input and be assured that this information will be relayed.
soundsliketree wrote:
soundsliketree wrote:I have received the following response to my letter to Ableton support (quoted below). I haven't responded yet to their response.

Hey there Eric ,

Thank you for reaching out to Ableton Support, and for your well worded response to recent changes in the Live software.

At the end of the day the user is the most important component of the Live software in regards to development and the end goal of audio production.

You are certainly a long time member of the Ableton tribe, and we do appreciate your input and the need for a discussion when it comes to major changes in the functionality of Live.

There will be times, however, where changes will be implemented that don't leave the entire user base satisfied, this is a reality of development and progress. It seems that you are well aware of this fact, but we also now that our team isn't capable of synthesizing the thoughts and workflows of our vast user-base whose input and daily use is the backbone of the our software.

Simply put it is a give and take, with no decisions being made hastily, and user experience research as a foundation of any major change in Live.

Your words have been noted and this is a point I will bring up to other members of the Live team. Change should be tested and not simply thrown at our users, and I will pass this on.

In the mean time, although i know this doesn't effect your work flow largely, a user has created a Max for Live device to regain the old functionality:

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... cclipcolor

I hope this helps, and please don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions!

All the best,
Matt

Ableton Support


(I have not had the chance to experiment with the M4L patch referred to, but my reading of the the functionality of that patch is that the color is changed each time a clip is fired on a record enabled track... which is quite different from Live's pre-9.5 behavior and thus does not "regain the old functionality." I'm interested in users' experiences with this patch.)

I responded to Matt's reply with:

Thanks for the quick response, Matt. I appreciate you communicating my thoughts to the rest of the Live team.
However, I feel there is an important distinction that you did not acknowledge in your response. I do understand that almost all changes have mixed responses from the user community, but this is something different. It is quite rare that Ableton removes a feature from Live. In this case I (and many others on the forum) simply can't fathom why you didn't simply add the new behavior as an additional option - given how it clearly would not have impacted performance or the simplicity of the user interface.

The underlying principle I'm standing for here is that users should be able to develop workflows that can persist through future versions of the software when at all possible.

Is this principle part of Ableton's development strategy for Live?

Thank you for your time and attention.
eO

ShelLuser
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:55 pm

soundsliketree wrote:I have received the following response to my letter to Ableton support (quoted below). I haven't responded yet to their response.

In the mean time, although i know this doesn't effect your work flow largely, a user has created a Max for Live device to regain the old functionality:

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... cclipcolor


(I have not had the chance to experiment with the M4L patch referred to, but my reading of the the functionality of that patch is that the color is changed each time a clip is fired on a record enabled track... which is quite different from Live's pre-9.5 behavior and thus does not "regain the old functionality." I'm interested in users' experiences with this patch.)
Seems I've become (in?)famous now :lol:

And you're right, the behavior of my patch isn't a full replacement of the old functionality. Problem is that I needed a reliable trigger for my patch, and a clip being fired is about the best you can get. I can't easily get a trigger from clip creation.

I'm looking into expansion and optionally new features...
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

oblique strategies
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by oblique strategies » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:59 pm

solovox wrote:Let us know if any of the Abes get back to you.
I received a response from Ableton Support:
"The behaviour you describe is indeed a bug: any clip which is already saved with a color should of course keep this colour even when imported to a track of a different colour. We have filed this as a story for our developers and hope this can be fixed quickly."

I am very grateful it addresses my particular issue (a bug), & offers a future bug fix. Hope the folks wanting Auto-Assign can get the option restored soon.

H20nly
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by H20nly » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:20 am

oblique strategies wrote: We have filed this as a story for our developers
"and he huffed, and he puffed, and he blewwwwww the workflow to shit!"

NoSonic822
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Re: Poll: Bring back Auto-Assign Colors to pre-9.5 functionality

Post by NoSonic822 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:20 am

tolgraven wrote:This change is utterly bizarre. Whatever anyone's opinion of the previous functionality it did nurture a workflow that is now completely broken. Too absurd.
yea for some people it nurtured a type of workflow...

for other s(like me)... it completely stopped workflow dead in its tracks and left me in a state of beweilderment as to why on Earth they would have a setting like that....

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